FAA to JAA

[B2N2]

do you need to pass all 14 exams

That depends on what your ultimate goal is.
Don't have the reference in front of me so I'm shooting from the hip here;

You have two options:

• Validation
• Conversion

Validation requires 1000hrs of Commercial Operations and 500 hrs Multi Crew.
Two written exams if I'm not mistaken, Human Factors and Airlaw.
Downside to validation is thatyou cna only fly the registration of the country that issued the validation. As in only G-reg if it was the UK CAA.

Conversion (more like addition in your case) requires you pass all 14 written exams and a checkride w/examiner. In your case that could probably be done during a type check or type recurrency.
You will then hold a standalone JAA ATP which allows you to fy any reg in JAA-land.

Anybody, feel free to correct if I'm off-base here.

[heliPP]

Jaa Conversion

Sorry if this trend already exists, i'm wondering does anyone have any experience with flight schools in Europe as I want to convert my FAA licences to JAA, i'm looking for a good school but not one were i will lose all my money either.
Any help would be amazing,
Thanks

[zondaracer]

Bristol Groundschool for the 14 theory exams

[heliPP]

Flight Schools

i have Bristol picked out for the ATPL exams but the flying Schools im not sure of yet and in this day an age money is always an option, so if anyone knows of any schools i could research i'd appreciate it??

[zedflyer]

EU ATPL

Question for those who know the EU system:
I would like to get the JAA ATPL, I have the FAA ATPL etc, and I understand
I need to complete ALL 14 exams. But, the skills test? I current on a B737
could I do the skills test in a 737 sim, at what school's & costs?

[perceval]

The amount of exams will vary depending on your experience on multi-pilot aircraft ( check EU law website ) . The ATPL skills test has to be down on a Multi Pilot A/C (JAR25) or approved simulator . Minimum of 2 hours . Price will vary depending on provider .Best is to decide on the country you want to do your 'conversion' in , then contact the local CAA for exact details .

[zedflyer]

EU ATPL

Any advise on which CAA country? I have over 3500 hours total, with over 1000 hours in multi-crew. Am I correct in saying that I'd need to complete ALL 14 exams?

[redsnail]

Yes you have to complete all 14 EASA exams.

For guidance, go to the CAA site and download "LASORs". It will give you what you need to do to satisfy the UK CAA. It's very close to what other European nations want too.

[TiltedTomato]

Just finished FAA IR to JAA IR conversion. My comments

Hi,

I'm not a big poster on this site but I think my comment might be useful to other people still hesitating between the full JAA course or the FAA-followed-by-the-conversion way. I hope it will help people avoid the mistake I made.

I just passed on friday the JAA ME IR skills test at Bournemouth. It took me 40.3 hours (+ 1.9 for the test) to do so. I already held a FAA SE IR that I did last year in October in San Diego. (I don't have a FAA CPL).

The minimum number of hours for this course is 20 hours: 13 in the sim, 7 in the airplane but I was told right away to plan for at least 30 hours.
I ended up doing 19.3 hours in the sim and 21 hours in the plane.

I'm certainly not the best pilot in the world, I take maybe a bit longer than other people to learn, and most importantly I lack of self-confidence, but don't get me wrong, it's absolutely impossible to get the rating in 20 hours if you don't have a lot of experience ( I now have exactly 250 hours total time not counting sim).

The two environment are very different and the things I found the most difficult were:

• the NDBs (holds and procedures). I had never really flown NDB before (the US have decomissionned almost all of them) and I'd been told it was hard but I didn't imagine it was that hard. I had also never heard about gates and abeams in the FAA environment.

• The Comms. Much more standard and strict than in the US. More calls, for exemple "Final Approach track or Localizer Established", "Next time over the beacon, ready for the procedure", I always forgot these as I was twisting, turning and throttling at the same time. It took me a bit of time to remember to do them but that's also because I sometimes had my brain switched off.

• The airspace. Down where I trained in Southern California I can't remember ever going in uncontrolled airspace so hearing about "stopping points" and "remain outside controlled airspace" was strange.

• ME. The fact that it was a multi-engine obviously doesn't help as there are lot more crucial checks to do and therefore a higher workload. The rudder was sometimes hard to control as there was a guy behind the aircraft hanging to it and it was me.

So in one word, if you think that the conversion way is going to save you some money, well in my case, the answer is negative and I reckon it's the same for most of us.

I must add that I had only flown about 20 hours in the UK before starting the IR so a person that did their PPL in the UK might be more used to and understand better the UK airspace and comms. 14 of these 20 hours were for the CPL course which I interrupted after 6 weeks because of the weather. Somebody that already has his CPL before doing the IR will have more hours on the ME and there might need less hours. Well it's generally the case at PAT as most people do everything on ME.

I must also say that most people who were converting and whom I talked to took about the same number of hours (35-40) and a friend of mine took about 60 hours not being full time and having to "juggle" between his job, the weather and the week-ends.

If I had to do all my training again I would probably avoid the US for the PPL and the IR and would only do the hour building as it is really fantastic to fly out there. Training there knowing that you gonna convert to JAA licence later is another story.

Any comment or question, don't hesitate. If you did the same as me I'd be interested to know how many hours it took for you to convert it.

[BigGrecian]

Congratulations to start with.

A good post and honest about the process and difficulties.

All though I can't comment on the conversion as I did a JAA IR first I lived with 4 other gents in a B&B who had to do "20 hours conversion" and the majority were up around 40-50 hours. A couple were even taking longer than the full course due to primacy. (I.e what you learn first sticks and it is much harder to adjust than learn from scratch properly the first time)

If I were to recommend the FAA IR - the only way I consider it to be worth while is all of the course in the multi.

Doing all FAA training then converting is definitely not more economical - I have yet to meet someone who saved money from 0 to JAA. A half way house is to complete JAA training in the USA which is cheaper than JAA in the UK at least.

And last but not least :
Nothing in the US will every prepare you adequately for the JAA IR compared to the FAA IR.

A local FAA DPE where I did my FAA conversions had UK JAA licences/ratings as well. He said the FAA IR was more like a UK IMC and the JAA IR was similar to the FAA ATP.

[PLINKY DEL MAYO]

Having been down this route myself I can confirm all of the points raised by TiltedTomato, however in my experience it is possible to achieve a conversion around the 20 hour mark.

To do this though you must be aware of your final objective of achieving a JAA ME/IR at the start of the process and plan your training accordingly. It is important you are fully aware of the differences between the FAA and JAA way of doing things and address it in your FAA IR training. For example rather than getting radar vectored approaches all the time ask for or go to an uncontrolled field and fly full procedural approaches. If you don’t have the luxury of an NDB in the locality and have the benefit of a G1000 equipped aircraft, practise holds using the ADF pointer on a random fix. Finally and most importantly get used to having a high work load prior to returning to Europe. Once home get as many back seat experiences as you can. This will help you pick up the procedural differences without having the added task of flying an aircraft round a hold on one engine and is a bit kinder on the pocket!

As for the merits of this route I can only say it worked out ok for me. That said I completed my training in the States when the exchange rate was more favourable and there was a clear financial saving along with other benefits. With current the exchange rates I would forgo the added stress of converting and just do a full IR course in the UK.


For the benifit of TiltedTomato

Total Conversion Hours: 24.2 Hrs
Dual ME: 8.9 Hrs
Dual SE: 6.1 Hrs
FNPT1: 6.3 Hrs
Transit & Test: 2.9 Hrs

[Tinstaafl]

It really depends on one's experience level. An inexperienced pilot should expect to take longer to convert than an experienced pilot. If the pilot is also learning something new eg adding a first time multi, or multi-IR then expect even longer.

My conversion to a UK ATPL was generally easy - but then I had 3700 hours, Australian & FAA ATPLs and was a current IR/multi instructor. In my case it took 9.5 hours from first flight to end of a combined CPL (well, ATPL it would be for me, but same test) & IR flight test. No sim. training that I recall.

Exams weren't that bad. My worst mistake was focusing too much on the harder Nav group items and not quite enough on Air Law & Radio. End result I failed those two by a single question each and had to resit them. Bugger. No time lost though because I re-sat them the same week I sat the Engine group.

I realise that I did a UK national licence and not the current JAR however any school with a decent reputation is well versed in JAR specifics by now. Anyway my intent was to try to show that there can be great variability in time to convert depending on prior experience, even allowing for the JAR 15hour IR training requirement.

Something that might still be possible: I was also able to save quite a bit of cash with the Cl. 1 medical by having all (or nearly all) medical procedures & investigations done in Australia and then bringing the results & reports with me to Gatwick. The CAA's fee was for a Cl.1 renewal even though I'd never held a CAA medical before. This option might still be available if you phone & ask about it.

[Airbus Girl]

Wow. I am really surprised. I had similar total hours when I did my FAA SE IR and then came back and converted. I did also do my ME rating in the USA, bare bones though, literally minimum hours and test. When I converted I only did c15 hours total, including the test (got dispensation from CAA for the hours).

Not sure where you trained, but I trained in southern California and we did cover all those things that you didn't.

NDBs - I was taught about NDBs (although admittedly there is a huge lack of NDBs in the USA)
Holds - I was taught about gates and abeams and we practiced alot of holds, including at airports and on airways (cross radials).
Comms - I found it much the same
Uncontrolled airspace - we did train at uncontrolled airports and also I had experience of the "remain outside controlled airspace" calls.

I did do my course quite intensively in the USA, completed the 40 hours and test in 15 days. I was also very pro-active with my studying, including sitting in the back with other students and practising on the sim if I was confused with anything. Also had very good ground briefings. And the King videos!!!

So it can be done, I guess it varies depending on the person.

[BigGrecian]

To do this though you must be aware of your final objective of achieving a JAA ME/IR at the start of the process

Good point - don't take the cop out option. There are many great schools in the US, there also many terrible ones - get one which provides good quality training and your set.

There was a great post by Keygrip once about the USA attracting student pilots with unrealistic expectations and generally the weaker pilots and those who took the path of least resistance. I can't find it in the search function but will look when I'm back of the next trip

You should expect every course to be the absolute minimums required and no matter where you train a minimum 20% overspend in time and financially is the norm amongst the majority of students.

[PLINKY DEL MAYO]

unrealistic expectations and generally the weaker pilots

OUCH! Thats tainting a great many pilots with the same brush.

[IO540]

There was a great post by Keygrip once about the USA attracting student pilots with unrealistic expectations and generally the weaker pilots.

Indeed that is nonsense.

The best pilots I know are high-hour high-currency aircraft owners and many of them did everything in the USA. They bypassed the UK training machine totally.

A lot of people went to Florida to do a PPL on a budget and a lot of them rarely fly because they have no money to fly, so they aren't much good, but the vast majority of UK PPL training system graduates rarely fly too and they consequently aren't much good either - judged after the fact

Keeping half an eye on EASA, this is an interesting topic. I have an FAA CPL/IR (SE) and would one day do a JAA PPL/IR, but don't want to do the UK CAA route because of the stupid screens and the gold plated flying (NDB holds to perfection; no operational relevance of that these days).

Spain and Greece look much more interesting - with the 7 exams done at Gatwick.

There is a school at Jerez which somebody I know spoke highly of, and they did a SE conversion too. The Greek one is basically Egnatia at LGKV; I've been there but never done any flying there.

If doing the full 14-exam conversion (JAA CPL/IR) then the JAA exams can be sat at Athens for something like 5-10 euros each!

However, the UK appears to be unique in (a) allowing a dispensation from the mandatory ground school attendance, and (b) allowing the flying and the test to be done in a foreign-reg plane.

[BigGrecian]

I'm not saying that - I'm saying there was a thread on the issue. I did training in the USA and the best part of the US system is Part 61 - the worst part is part 61 - it leads to the extremes in standards.

The opinion I have is that a Spanish IR isn't worth the paper it's printed on compared to a UK IR. I justified this on the numerous students who never tested, never completed the training but still go the IR....magically.

It's not generally a problem for experienced pilots who need to tick the box - but for a freshly minted FAA IR / JAA CPL it's not the best place to go.
There are plenty of other JAA states other than the UK which do it properly and for the same cost as Spain.

Besides this is a rumour forum...

[LH2]

Originally Posted by banjodrone

Careful Grecian.

I've had him on my ignore list for a long time so I don't really know what kind of bollocks he's on about this time, but when it comes to light aviation IFR, if there is one person in this forum who knows what he's talking about, that'd be the Lycoming-horizontally-opposed-six-cylinder-engine-named poster above

Whatever your reason for getting an IR, you could do worse than read some of his stuff. I disagree with him very occasionally on some of the more technical points which happen to fall within my area of expertise, but even out of those disagreements I come out having learnt something.

[IO540]

a Spanish IR isn't worth the paper it's printed on compared to a UK IR

The Spanish IR is prob99 less "formal" than the perfectly gold plated UK one but (a) we are talking about a probably experienced pilot doing a conversion for a reason no other than the carriage of duplicate papers being mandated (or proposed to be so) by EASA and (b) I cannot see the operational significance of flying NDB holds with stuff like the gates etc, which literally nobody does today in today's RNAV enroute/terminal IFR environment.

It is time the whole post-WW2 edifice moved on to the latter part of the 20th century.

The advantage of doing this kind of paperwork collection exercise in Spain is that you go there, get your head down and get on with it, and the weather is not going to mess it up. Whereas if you dedicated say 2 weeks to it in the UK, you probably won't achieve it, due to wx.

[Ellemeet]

but how about the written exams?

I believe that the practical part of JAA ir is more difficult than FAA.

But if you are FAA PPL/IR & 100+ hrs and want to convert (not validate) to JAA PPL/IR:

what is required? which written tests and what practical?

What if you also already have a JAA PPL?