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Double licence JAA/FAA?

Old 19th Apr 2009, 02:38
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Question Double licence JAA/FAA?

Hello, I've recently finished a JAR-FCL "frozen" ATPL. There may be an opportunity for me to take a SEP and/or MEP pilot instructor course in the US and afterwards train pilots there. I know there are a lot of topics concerning JAA to FAA conversion and vice-versa (which I haven't properly read, to be honest!). But the main point of my doubt, at the moment, is a bit different:

- If I convert to FAA will I be able to retain a JAA licence AS WELL? A double "frozen" ATPL licence? FAA and JAA at the same time?

- And, if that isn't possible, what would I need to do to convert BACK to JAA in the future should I return to work in the EU? Would it somehow be easier given that my full ground and air training was done in the EU with respect to JAR-FCL (well, excluding the future PI training in the US)?


Thank you very much for your input!
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 03:01
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You can hold as many licenses as you want but would need to fulfill the requirements of each one to maintain its currency. There is no such thing as a frozen FAA ATPL you would convert to a CPL/IR. Most of the topics on here are about converting the other way FAA to JAA.

Converting to FAA will be a lot easier and cheaper, I think you will be surprised at the exams required, very, very easy compared to JAA. You will probably need to do a few hours for the CPL and a few hours for the IR and take the tests, you can after all already fly a plane with G painted on the back so why make you jump through hoops like 15 hours IR training just because it has an N instead.
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 03:19
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If I do convert to FAA my new licence will be printed in the US, including JAA certification? Or.. would I hold two pieces of paper?

So, no licence re-conversion should I return to the EU to fly under JAA. That's great! What about the FAA SEP/MEP PI licence? How could I convert it?

Regarding the theoretical tests for a FAA conversion, are they organized in various subjects just like JAA ATPL theory?

And how about the class 1 medicals? Would I hold two different certificates, each with its expiration date? Or is it convertible too?

Another question, slightly off-topic: Would I be able to renew my JAA ME or IR in the US? Does that option even exist?

Yet another slightly off-topic question: What about logbooks? Two different logbooks? And how should I credit flight time? Specially FAA multi-pilot time in a single-pilot plane on non-commercial operations, which I can't credit as such in JAA?
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 04:39
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You should do more research as I can tell you really do not know anything about it at all. Not a problem as everyone starts somewhere but as you have a JAA ATPL(F) I am surprised by some of your questions.

FAA and JAA are totally seperate, no single license, two bits of paper , two medicals, same log book if you want, most people just use one. Log time in the way you would in the Portugal.

Written tests. One for IR one for commercial. You could study for both and pass with good scores in a week.

Not sure you can renew a JAA IR in the states, call a flight school that does JAA stuff in the states.

FAA multi-pilot time in a single-pilot plane on non-commercial operations. Does not exist in the US either. If it is single pilot you cannot log multi pilot time.

What about the FAA SEP/MEP PI licence? Does not exist, you do not get P1 licenses. Again look at flight school websites or give them a call.

Honestly you need to call and talk to people or search on the forum. Calling schools would be bettter.
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 07:15
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Clearly you need to learn how the FAA system works. I suggest you pop over to Amazon and buy yourself a copy of FAR/AIM (the FAA 'equivilent' of LASORS).
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 10:23
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With regards to the JAA IR and MEP - or "IR-SPA-MEP" as it's officially called - YES, you most certainly can renew/revalidate it in the USA.
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 17:59
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Without wishing to undermine the importance of becoming familiar with regulations governing flight crew certification/licensing, there are a number of subtle provisions under Part 61 deserving attention. In the interest of the wider audience among which doubtless others would pursue the same conversion the steps necessary can be discussed here.

As flexibilities are inherent within the JAR-FCL CPL/IR-SPA-ME acquisition process it would be perhaps easier to relate the outstanding requirements under US regulations if some details of your flying experience and training background were given. A snapshot of your logbook 'total flying experience' broken down into the relevant categories should suffice. It will also be necessary for you to determine the total pilot-in-command cross-country flying time for sectors with a direct geodesic distance between points of departure and landing greater than 50 nm. You can make use of Thaddeus Vincenty's Direct and Inverse Solutions of Geodesics on the Ellipsoid with application of nested equations or Karl Swartz's Great Circle Mapper to determine the distances. A few remaining questions can be raised once you have provided the basic information above.
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 22:47
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Thank you everyone who replied so far!

scooby79, I don't understand what surprises you. Licence conversion isn't part of the JAA ATPL Air Law theory syllabus. There could exist, as far as I knew, an ongoing convergence of rules... Like Open Skies... or the FAA's CESAR equivalent. Regarding multi-pilot time, you are right! My mistake. What I meant was wet/shared time (both pilots crediting full block time as PIC) in a single pilot plane, which is legal in FAA jurisdiction and not in JAA - and how that would affect time crediting towards ATPL "unfreezing" in JAA jurisdiction later on. You say I should log time as in Portugal... so, should I split the time then, in case of a merged logbook? Also, I plan on calling the school and plough the forums soon enough, just trying to seek some basic directional guidance.

Shunter, do you know if there's a PDF available freely online?

selfin, and everyone, once again thank you!
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 23:46
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What I meant was wet/shared time (both pilots crediting full block time as PIC) in a single pilot plane, which is legal in FAA jurisdiction and not in JAA - and how that would affect time crediting towards ATPL "unfreezing" in JAA jurisdiction later on.
Voila, something someone knows something from FAA 'system' while no idea about the rest.
Also, the magic word 'research' on PPRuNe would yield dozens of threads and posts where it's explained that being 'safety pilot' is useless from 'JAA point of view' in this specific example.

Now that you have JAA CPL/ME IR, why would you waste your time 'hour building' on ME aircraft in the US?

as selfin mentions, make sure you have required XC time as per FAA, 50nm+ in airplanes etc. Technically, you could have XC time from helicopters as well (25nm+) but not wholly.
www.gpoaccess.gov/ecfr and about part 61.12x scroll through. Whole FAR/AIM online. AIM could be obtained on FAA website as well. Besides other useful stuff for training you obviously don't need that much.

If you're good, meet the requirement for licence issue, do the writtens (ASA Test Prep, check it on amazon, plenty software online if wish), sort paperwork beforehand, do checkride. AFAIK, you can combine LST(checkride as per US lingo) for CPL/MEIR as well.

BTW, you also don't need multi crew time for FAA ATP. Just XC, night, PIC, IMC etc time requirements.
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 17:01
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You cannot both credit full block time as PIC. For you to log PIC in the states whilst the other guy/girl also logs PIC in a single pilot plane one of you must be using instruments only to fly so you can log most of the flight time both as PIC but not all of it.
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 17:08
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So, for both pilots to take full credit, in case of single-pilot planes with shared time, the plane must be flown under IFR with one pilot crediting full block time PIC IFR and the other crediting full block time PIC VFR (being a safety pilot)?

And how to convert those times back to JAA? Who gets to credit it?

I'll be sure to read part 61 and 141 as well...
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 17:36
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Also, just to qualify.... (it's been thrashed to death on here many times).

The FAA 50nm XC requirement pertains to only 1 leg of the flight. So if you fly from Leeds to Leicester, then Leicester to Derby, then Derby to Tatenhill, only 1 leg is >50nm, but all of the time counts.
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 18:08
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Only one leg with 50+ nm flown during your career/training?
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 18:28
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So you have ICAO CPL, could do minimal flight training towards FAA CPL as you want and then you seem more interested in this 'two PIC in single pilot airplane' hour building thing.
Are all your European 'XC' hours useless?

If you've got ways to instruct legally in the US, you'd build plenty SE&ME time, logging PIC as FI even when student logs PIC with PPL in pocket.

50nm+ ?? Maybe you should get out of way this one as well:
including one cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance and as specified - as per FAA
And how to convert those times back to JAA? Who gets to credit it?
Are you only reading every third word or only what you 'want to hear'?
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 23:55
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MartinCh, I have a JAA "frozen" ATPL. I'm not more interested than everything else, it's just an interesting question I haven't seen answered. Of course my XC aren't useless! It was stated there was a requisite for a 50+ nm leg, I think it's a really small leg, that's all. I won't have ANY problem complying with that requirement, even if it's 300+ nm.

"Are you only reading every third word or only what you 'want to hear'?"

Actually, I've no idea where you've got those quotes from. Not from this thread, to be sure. It's still unanswered. Wanting me to read from the legislation is one thing, which I accept. Wanting me not to read just one out of three words of a text not posted here is another...

Thank you for the info you posted on your first post, though, it was helpful!
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 00:20
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that fist quote in my last post was from 14 CFR part 61 blah blah. It's not a copyrighted article and I referenced e-cfr in earlier post. CFR is public domain anyway, isn't it? not from a poster. Hence my ---- - as per FAA ---------- at the end.

second from your words.

Good on you if your XC time is fine by FAA standards, saves a lot of hassle later on.You know yourself that one could log XC time in the UK flying to not that distant neighbouring airfield. It's only one 300nm+ total distance flight requirement for CPL(A).

Fine by me if you explore the legality of two PIC in single pilot aircraft (and one of them not instructor). Just that there are loads of threads on that. Some of your questions and then pinpointing the FAA thing made a bit different impression on me.
enjoy studying (more)
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 21:56
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As the holder of a JAA fATPL/IR etc ...which FAA instrument knowlege test is required to convert to standalone FAA CPL/IR.....I see there is an option for 'Foreign Pilot'. Or do we just take the 'Instrument Pilot"Cheers Sonic
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Old 23rd Apr 2009, 23:54
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(Subject to below*)

To include a standard FAA-Instrument Rating in a standalone US-pilot certificate you must take the full/standard IR knowledge test.

To include a restricted FAA-Instrument Rating in a Section 61.75 "foreign-based" US-Private Pilot Certificate (pursuant to 61.75(d)) the Instrument Foreign Pilot knowledge test ("IFP test") must be successfully passed and the result deposited by the applicant in person at one of the FSDOs within the 6-month validity period of the FAA-issued 'Authenticity' letter.

The IFP is abbreviated to 40 questions on Part 91 Subpart B. You cannot take the standard Instrument Rating knowledge test in lieu. If the IFP is failed then further instruction and an instructor endorsement (i.a.w. 61.49) is required.

*Much of this information was valid when FAA Order 8710.3E (now cancelled) was published on 21-Apr-2006. It has only come to my attention that this Order has been cancelled (anyone know where the replacement is?) however I can see no reason for the content to have changed dramatically in 3 years. Contact Oklahoma City (which verified the foregoing information only a month ago) if in doubt.
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Old 30th Apr 2009, 11:34
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Hey there,

I am currently half way through my JAA ATPL theory exams and was thinking about doing FAA licences as well this summer in Florida.

I was looking at a few flight schools in Florida for FAA IR,CPL,ME training with reasonable prices.

After I would convert them in the UK and then have both FAA and JAA.

Is there anybody going down the conversion route at the moment?

Any thoughts or advice?

Thank you in advance,

Daniel
 
Old 1st May 2009, 20:30
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Chaps

10 Year bizjet pilot here, if you get the opportunity ALWAYS do some sort of FAA license especially if you can 2 for the price of 1 or 1.5.

Have spent 5 out of the 10 years gainfully employed on the back of my US license if you are fortunate enough to train at FLightsafety or similar then have any types put on your FAA license as well.

If you do have a validated JAA PPL and you do some tests over there make sure they put US TEST PASSED on your temporary they translate straight across when you upgrade to an ATP
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