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fibod,
If the airlines were recruiting then i would agree with you. A structured hour building program over a few weeks done especially to prepare the student for the CPL would be a good thing. However there may be no recruitment for 3-4 years if some predictions are right. IMHO it would be much better right now to just enjoy the flying and get logging hours.
As for the standard of flying, this is surely what the hour building is about. You are building experience and becoming an aircraft 'Commander'. You say the DIY method is inferior to structured and supervised hour building where you have your hand held and are told how to fly. I was assuming that someone who is heading towards a career as a commercial pilot would be mature and intelligent enough to know that they should be aspiring to acheive a high standard of airmanship in all their flying.
You have a lot of experience of training both Integrated Course students and Modular students so i am not disagreeing with you that what you say is how many students fly, but i am giving advice to someone who has yet to start hour building so they can avoid making the same mistakes as others.
If the airlines were recruiting then i would agree with you. A structured hour building program over a few weeks done especially to prepare the student for the CPL would be a good thing. However there may be no recruitment for 3-4 years if some predictions are right. IMHO it would be much better right now to just enjoy the flying and get logging hours.
As for the standard of flying, this is surely what the hour building is about. You are building experience and becoming an aircraft 'Commander'. You say the DIY method is inferior to structured and supervised hour building where you have your hand held and are told how to fly. I was assuming that someone who is heading towards a career as a commercial pilot would be mature and intelligent enough to know that they should be aspiring to acheive a high standard of airmanship in all their flying.
You have a lot of experience of training both Integrated Course students and Modular students so i am not disagreeing with you that what you say is how many students fly, but i am giving advice to someone who has yet to start hour building so they can avoid making the same mistakes as others.
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Do you know Prophead; you might have a point. And perhaps it could be extended to other professions. For example, rather than the bore of going though structured vocational training to become, for example, a doctor, perhaps one could do a medical first aid course (anywhere in the world as long as they subscribe to international first aid standards) and then build experience by treating people who need help? Perhaps one could get together with a couple of mates and open a medical drop-in centre. Maybe do a few more hours work by travelling to a 3rd world country to patch up poor people; it wouldn’t really matter too much if you were not completely familiar with the more advance procedures because the first aid course will give you the basics and it would be more fun to do it in an unstructured way.
Of course, some people might question whether this DIY form of vocational training will result in the same standards as doing a traditional vocational course at a medical school, but surely, this is what vocational training is all about? The student doctor is building experience and becoming a medical practitioner; practicing working unsupervised. People might say the DIY method is inferior to structured and supervised medical training where you have your hand held and are told how to examine, diagnose and treat patients. However, it would be fair to assume that someone who is heading towards a career as a doctor would be mature and intelligent enough to know that they should be aspiring to achieve a high standard of medicine in all their practice.
Of course, some people might question whether this DIY form of vocational training will result in the same standards as doing a traditional vocational course at a medical school, but surely, this is what vocational training is all about? The student doctor is building experience and becoming a medical practitioner; practicing working unsupervised. People might say the DIY method is inferior to structured and supervised medical training where you have your hand held and are told how to examine, diagnose and treat patients. However, it would be fair to assume that someone who is heading towards a career as a doctor would be mature and intelligent enough to know that they should be aspiring to achieve a high standard of medicine in all their practice.
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But that would not be a recognised way of training to be a doctor so is a bit of a waste of the time you spent typing all that out.
Building hours 'DIY' as you put it is a perfectly acceptable way of gaining the hours required to start the CPL course. You seem to be making a rather broad assumption that people are unable to build hours themselves without their flying skills degrading. That they need the help of an instructor to guide them through. There are hundreds of people out there who have done it this way and probably had a great time doing so.
You also keep referring to 'DIY Training'. The hour building is not training. It is about gaining valuble experience as an aircraft 'commander'. This is about making your own decisions not having it all mapped out for you. Whether you are flying the family to france for lunch or doing aeros it all builds experience.
I do not wish to get into an argument with you. We are obviously coming from completely different angles on this. My advice was based on the assumption that there will be no recruitment in the near future, so why do an intensive course? And why stop at 100 hours? What then, dont fly for months on end? Flying regularly and keeping your flying to a high standard is the key.
As i said in a previous post, this is all just my opinion.
Building hours 'DIY' as you put it is a perfectly acceptable way of gaining the hours required to start the CPL course. You seem to be making a rather broad assumption that people are unable to build hours themselves without their flying skills degrading. That they need the help of an instructor to guide them through. There are hundreds of people out there who have done it this way and probably had a great time doing so.
You also keep referring to 'DIY Training'. The hour building is not training. It is about gaining valuble experience as an aircraft 'commander'. This is about making your own decisions not having it all mapped out for you. Whether you are flying the family to france for lunch or doing aeros it all builds experience.
I do not wish to get into an argument with you. We are obviously coming from completely different angles on this. My advice was based on the assumption that there will be no recruitment in the near future, so why do an intensive course? And why stop at 100 hours? What then, dont fly for months on end? Flying regularly and keeping your flying to a high standard is the key.
As i said in a previous post, this is all just my opinion.
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Prophead
I have been reading every post you have posted on this thread with great interest. I totally agree with you in everything you say, that why spend over the odds and do an intense course over a short period of time with the chances of getting a job anytime soon are minimal.
Having taken your advice onboard, which at the moment seems the most realistic, I plan to complete my PPL at Cardiff and join a syndicate of an a/c which is available to me to complete my hours building. Then, if and when the industry is on the up, I plan to go to Bristol GS to complete ATPL studies and onto Bristol Aviation for CPL/IR.
This way I feel that I would not be exposing myself to any huge risks as I would with integrated, and as you have said, train to become a 'good' pilot in command unsupervised and enjoy the real flying.
Thanks for the great advice and keep it coming
Regards
Scott
I have been reading every post you have posted on this thread with great interest. I totally agree with you in everything you say, that why spend over the odds and do an intense course over a short period of time with the chances of getting a job anytime soon are minimal.
Having taken your advice onboard, which at the moment seems the most realistic, I plan to complete my PPL at Cardiff and join a syndicate of an a/c which is available to me to complete my hours building. Then, if and when the industry is on the up, I plan to go to Bristol GS to complete ATPL studies and onto Bristol Aviation for CPL/IR.
This way I feel that I would not be exposing myself to any huge risks as I would with integrated, and as you have said, train to become a 'good' pilot in command unsupervised and enjoy the real flying.
Thanks for the great advice and keep it coming
Regards
Scott
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Prophead, Fibod,
Thank you very much for both your opinions. I can see it from both points of view. I just want to get out there and get started. I know that doing it part time whilst still working would be worse for me as I have a daughter and would be easily distracted from the ground studies for exams. If doing it through a school full time, that same distraction would not be there during the most of the time and I know any time then spent with her would be quality and not worrying that i should be studying etc
I am just worried at this time about future employment.
If i start the course, aiming for completion with my frozen ATPL around June 2010, what are my options, should there still be a lack of airline jobs??
Thank you very much for both your opinions. I can see it from both points of view. I just want to get out there and get started. I know that doing it part time whilst still working would be worse for me as I have a daughter and would be easily distracted from the ground studies for exams. If doing it through a school full time, that same distraction would not be there during the most of the time and I know any time then spent with her would be quality and not worrying that i should be studying etc
I am just worried at this time about future employment.
If i start the course, aiming for completion with my frozen ATPL around June 2010, what are my options, should there still be a lack of airline jobs??
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And sorry guys, I don't want to seem biased to Prophead's advice, I just feel that for myself personally and the state of the industry, this route seems to be the most realisitc
Mike, check your PM!
Mike, check your PM!
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Hello Guys
The modular route is completely valid. However, all to often wannabees set off down this route, do a PPL (sometimes of dubious quality) and then without guidance go off at a tangent. It is not that they lack ability, or intelligence, it is that they lack the experience to know what is good and what is bad practice, and unwittingly develop poor habits that can be difficult and expensive to irradiate when they get involved in formal training later on.
Prophead, I'm sorry, my comments in my last post were 'tongue in cheek'; I'll try and be a bit less ironical as sarcasm too often gets lost or misinterpreted on a forum like this. You are right in saying that, other than the PPL, the 150 hours required before commencing a modular CPL course are not training. However, those who do not do any training with the hours at their disposal are severely disadvantaged compared to those who do.
As for the value of this time in developing command skills, for those who plan to or by default end up operating professionally in a single-pilot GA role the experience of coping in at the deep-end without help may be of benefit. It is arguable whether it is of more benefit than supervised training (much of which has to be done as PIC as well to log the required PIC time).
You are right in that we are unlikely to agree on this one; my opinion, for what it is worth, is based on training and examining probably literally hundreds of student pilots who have gone down this route and then struggle when they are required to come up to speed for the CPL or IR, whichever they choose to do first. I am not alone in this; I'd say the majority of instructors working in commercial FTOs teaching modular students would agree that the majority of students arrive poorly prepared as a result of their 'experience'.
In your post yesterday you said "i am giving advice to someone who has yet to start hour building so they can avoid making the same mistakes as others."
So am I. I'm not suggesting avoiding the modular route, what I am suggesting is that if anyone does go down that route, avoid the mistake made by the majority by inadvertently squandering their hours building.
But I've banged on about this enough; anyone would think I'm an old man by the way I keep repeating myself. Oh, I am
The modular route is completely valid. However, all to often wannabees set off down this route, do a PPL (sometimes of dubious quality) and then without guidance go off at a tangent. It is not that they lack ability, or intelligence, it is that they lack the experience to know what is good and what is bad practice, and unwittingly develop poor habits that can be difficult and expensive to irradiate when they get involved in formal training later on.
Prophead, I'm sorry, my comments in my last post were 'tongue in cheek'; I'll try and be a bit less ironical as sarcasm too often gets lost or misinterpreted on a forum like this. You are right in saying that, other than the PPL, the 150 hours required before commencing a modular CPL course are not training. However, those who do not do any training with the hours at their disposal are severely disadvantaged compared to those who do.
As for the value of this time in developing command skills, for those who plan to or by default end up operating professionally in a single-pilot GA role the experience of coping in at the deep-end without help may be of benefit. It is arguable whether it is of more benefit than supervised training (much of which has to be done as PIC as well to log the required PIC time).
You are right in that we are unlikely to agree on this one; my opinion, for what it is worth, is based on training and examining probably literally hundreds of student pilots who have gone down this route and then struggle when they are required to come up to speed for the CPL or IR, whichever they choose to do first. I am not alone in this; I'd say the majority of instructors working in commercial FTOs teaching modular students would agree that the majority of students arrive poorly prepared as a result of their 'experience'.
In your post yesterday you said "i am giving advice to someone who has yet to start hour building so they can avoid making the same mistakes as others."
So am I. I'm not suggesting avoiding the modular route, what I am suggesting is that if anyone does go down that route, avoid the mistake made by the majority by inadvertently squandering their hours building.
But I've banged on about this enough; anyone would think I'm an old man by the way I keep repeating myself. Oh, I am
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Hi
I did see the funny side of your post
Well people will make their own mind up how they do it. We do however both agree that the hour building is important and should not be squandered whichever way you choose.
Happy flying.
I did see the funny side of your post
Well people will make their own mind up how they do it. We do however both agree that the hour building is important and should not be squandered whichever way you choose.
Happy flying.
Scott Cardiff - you'll find the commuting Cardiff - Bristol Airport - Cardiff very tiring everyday, once you get into the flying so I'd budget for staying there during the week.
And definitely base yourself close to BGS for the groundschool brush-up as you'll be working all hours.
Both good schools.
And definitely base yourself close to BGS for the groundschool brush-up as you'll be working all hours.
Both good schools.
Join Date: Oct 2008
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That was a cool discussion prophead and fibod. I would be delighted to rent a plane and head off to France with the family some day or on days off but i think for serious practice id have to go with fibod, and enjoy the fruits later.
Back to the more original post, I have a very keen interest in Bristol aswell, bit of intuition, and a heck of a lot of research, although havnt rang them yet.
Could any one answer me this though, bristol ground school and bristol aviation, two completley different things right?
I rang bristol.gs today and they said they where not affiliated with anyone, does that mean with bristol aviation's integrated course that you dont do ground school with bristol groundschool? (that would be a shame really)
I know i should just ask them myself but its late here and well I'm typin away so thought I might aswell ask.
Back to the more original post, I have a very keen interest in Bristol aswell, bit of intuition, and a heck of a lot of research, although havnt rang them yet.
Could any one answer me this though, bristol ground school and bristol aviation, two completley different things right?
I rang bristol.gs today and they said they where not affiliated with anyone, does that mean with bristol aviation's integrated course that you dont do ground school with bristol groundschool? (that would be a shame really)
I know i should just ask them myself but its late here and well I'm typin away so thought I might aswell ask.
CL, they are seperate schools. Bristol Flying Centre offered modular flying training only, but have been taken over and are now Bristol Aviation.
From their website, Bristol Aviation offer an integrated course using BGS for the groundschool - they may use others, I don't know.
You guys really ought to polish up your research skills.
From their website, Bristol Aviation offer an integrated course using BGS for the groundschool - they may use others, I don't know.
You guys really ought to polish up your research skills.
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Just talked to a guy called Bruce at Bristol Aviation in there, very helpful chap, actually he sais the course is not integrated but modular and they are currently trying to get approval from the CAA to make an integrated one although there would not be very much difference in the actual course itself apart from some of the things would have to be done in the UK. Cheedar is used for the ground school alright but I dont know if they bought them or not, forgot to ask.
Anyway they seem very nice and look very professional, its definatley in my top five for sure, weening them down slowly but surley.
Anyway they seem very nice and look very professional, its definatley in my top five for sure, weening them down slowly but surley.
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Ronnie - I think this is a really useful thread. I too am on the verge of taking the plunge into F/T 0 to ATPL training and am looking for both value in my training and a reputable, 'customer facing' organisation. The comments on here are really helping to support the other research I have completed and I think my first option has to be Bristol Aviation's Professional Pilot Programme. It is extremely competitively priced, is an established training course and the team down there couldn't be more helpful. I'll let you know how I get on but have signed up to start with them early Feb.
Maybe I'll see you in South Africa
Maybe I'll see you in South Africa
