How do ab-initio graduates afford SSTR programmes e.g. with Ryanair?
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There are advantages to Integrated courses but can't think of many - PIC time 50hrs less than Modular route for CPL.
The greatest advantage of modular is that you get to acquire autonomy, sense of initiative. There's not always someone checking on you, making sure you're fine as in integrated schools. In modular, you book your own courses, your aircraft, your instructors, prepare navs to places you decide to go, monitor your budget, think of ways to achieve your goal (money-wise) and look for schools you think suit your needs, etc...
That in itself reflects initiative, engagement and motivation.
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My mistake. GAPAN is £15 cheaper than OAAs. Its a one day 2 hr test. OAAs is 2 days with SIM, COMPASS and TECH tests, team exercises and a 2 on one interview.
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You also get debriefed one on one with the GAPAN tests and they have no interest in it other than to make you realise if you have the aptitude or not. OAA on the otherhand will be making a very healthy profit out of you should you meet a minimum requirement.
Not been to an OAA open day, but wonder what you have to do pass. I mean, someone with ab-initio requirements (i.e. NO flying experience) almost by definition should screw up anything they try to do in a simulator, so why do it? there'll be more boring, but easier to interpret methods of assessing hand-eye, depth perception, decision making, reaction times etc. etc.
Also, maths is maths whatever you're applying it to, and a reasonable 'A' level maths student should be able to handle most things thrown at them.
At the end of GAPAN, you get 1-to-1 with someone in the industry for feedback/ advice etc. To my knowledge they don't get paid for it whatever you decide, so maybe a bit more impartial?
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Here we go with the next batch of which one is better !!!
Well I am biased, as I strongly believe in the OAA product, their 2 day selection procedure is very well thought out and balanced.
It gives the candidate an excellent snapshot of themselves, which shows how well prepared the person is for a career in aviation, and a pass will show that the candidate has what is needed to complete the course in the required time and at minimum risk to themselves.
GAPAN tests I am sure are excellent as far as they go, but power for your pound the OAA is better value.
The reply to the question do I think people only go modular after failing selection the answer is NO, but many who do fail try an easier selection, or go modular.
Oxford's Waypoint scheme for modular students is proof of this, and produces some excellent results.
Modular suits some who wish to spread the cost of their training, whilst working to fund each stage of training.
But this is also used as the "cheapo' route with in some cases schools with lower standards and quality control, that is why there will be a tightening of standards and greater oversight by regulating Aviation Authorities.
Ultimately this will lead to higher costs for the modular route narrowing the gap with the integrated or waypoint schemes.
I was an integrated student back in the late 60's and in those days if you could afford to pay you got in, unlike today.
Its a hard cold world out there and one needs to give one's self the best chance to land that first job and although I do not entirely agree with the SSTR route it will be the only game in town soon.
Training on the cheap will in all probability not prepare the student adequately enough for that jump to the right seat on a SSTR course so choose the training establishment with great care, either on the modular route or integrated.
Also the SSTR provider should be looked at carefully, as I know companies who have had to fail or completely re-train already type rated pilots.
DON'T go into an SSTR unless there is a job at the end of the course, and certainly DON'T go there if they only offer the rating and say 150 hours on type, it will be of no use to you when looking for that long term employment.
Well I am biased, as I strongly believe in the OAA product, their 2 day selection procedure is very well thought out and balanced.
It gives the candidate an excellent snapshot of themselves, which shows how well prepared the person is for a career in aviation, and a pass will show that the candidate has what is needed to complete the course in the required time and at minimum risk to themselves.
GAPAN tests I am sure are excellent as far as they go, but power for your pound the OAA is better value.
The reply to the question do I think people only go modular after failing selection the answer is NO, but many who do fail try an easier selection, or go modular.
Oxford's Waypoint scheme for modular students is proof of this, and produces some excellent results.
Modular suits some who wish to spread the cost of their training, whilst working to fund each stage of training.
But this is also used as the "cheapo' route with in some cases schools with lower standards and quality control, that is why there will be a tightening of standards and greater oversight by regulating Aviation Authorities.
Ultimately this will lead to higher costs for the modular route narrowing the gap with the integrated or waypoint schemes.
I was an integrated student back in the late 60's and in those days if you could afford to pay you got in, unlike today.
Its a hard cold world out there and one needs to give one's self the best chance to land that first job and although I do not entirely agree with the SSTR route it will be the only game in town soon.
Training on the cheap will in all probability not prepare the student adequately enough for that jump to the right seat on a SSTR course so choose the training establishment with great care, either on the modular route or integrated.
Also the SSTR provider should be looked at carefully, as I know companies who have had to fail or completely re-train already type rated pilots.
DON'T go into an SSTR unless there is a job at the end of the course, and certainly DON'T go there if they only offer the rating and say 150 hours on type, it will be of no use to you when looking for that long term employment.
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Have you ever thought that not everybody is sad enough to read through streams of information from years ago but has the common sense to post a reasonable question - unlike yourself...
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And GAPAN aren't about to relieve you of £70k+ based on the results of your tests . . .
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OAA will however back up their assessment by offering Skills Protection which refunds all training fees (not accommodation though) paid up to and including the CPL test should a student fail through lack of ability (rather than application)
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Wouldn't make particularly good business sense to start filling up courses with people who you will end up having to refund 10 months into the course.
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Quite the opposite BerksFlyer. Show me an FTO that likes to give refunds, even when the flying has not been completed. Pprune is littered with posts by people who were unhappy with a course (mostly modular students doing PPLs in the States it seems), pulled out and can't get their advance payment back. Yes, OAA will make a lot of money off those that pass. Likewise, they could lose a lot if they pick ones that are not capable. They could also clog up the sausage machine if they take ones who can't keep up. Degraded efficiency means degraded margins. From what I have heard, their standard is high and they absolutely do not waive it, even if you miss a pass mark by one point. If anything, they are binning capable wannabes for fear of having to give a refund.
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Hi folks, I've been away for a while and have just read the rest of the thread- seems to have gotten a little off-topic! Hopefully this won't turn into another integrated/ modular debate, I have made up my mind (as someone said earlier for my own reasons) and I shant bore you all telling you why.
I was hoping to get a few more replies from people actually having completed integrated courses and then paying their way for a type rating. Of course this is not my preferred way of getting into the industry but I'm trying to prepare myself for every eventuality and this seems to be the way things are going).
I was hoping to get a few more replies from people actually having completed integrated courses and then paying their way for a type rating. Of course this is not my preferred way of getting into the industry but I'm trying to prepare myself for every eventuality and this seems to be the way things are going).
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I recently attended a cabair open day and got speaking to the hsbc bank manager in charge of the ab-inito loans.. She told me that the milton keynes branch provide full funding assistance for the whole course plus living expenses if required. She also went on to say how they had also funded the extra for the type rating on top of the 65k with certain individuals. Their business and contingency plan must have been impressive!
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OAA will however back up their assessment by offering Skills Protection which refunds all training fees (not accommodation though) paid up to and including the CPL test should a student fail through lack of ability (rather than application
From my experience - one thing FTOs like doing is giving refunds - they are quick to take money, but very shy when it comes to giving back.
I was hoping to get a few more replies from people actually having completed integrated courses and then paying their way for a type rating.
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I would take this with a pinch of salt. Like all other "protection" or "peace of mind" schemes in life - you quickly learn they are not worth the paper they are written on.
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I just wonder where are the times when aviation enthusiasts marveled at the sky because they just wanted to fly anything and were happy if they could and did not care what they were flying. Today it's all about status. And a turboprop or smaller AC does not have that status to a great many. It makes me sad to see. Most young pilots used to grow into the industry gradually and had to earn their wings over many many hours before they were sat into an airliner. Today it's just about money not aptitude.
There were times when pilots were respected for what they did and were paid accordingly. People coming out of the sausage factories the likes of OAA or FTE to which they not only pay a totally overrated price for the training but also buy themselves into the jet job, e.g. FR, don't realize, as they are selfish and shortsighted, how much they actually hurt our profession and consequently themselves too. This makes me sick and bluntly speaking I have a complete lack of respect for those individuals.
Before people slack me off now as just being jelous let me tell you this, two years back I actually had the choice of going integrated or modular because I was and am in the fortunate position to have parents that are able to completely fund my training. However, the math simply did not make any sense to me because I want to make money with flying at one point in my life. Today I am just glad glad glad I went modular. Not only have I had the most exciting time over the last couple years, because I have flown a whole range of different aircraft, including traildraggers, and was not put in a cheap uniform made in China, in many parts of the States including the Bahamas, UK and Spain, but also got the training at about half the cost of if I had gone integrated.
I have just finished my training and already started my first job which is flying a 172 into different gras strips all over the UK doing aerial photograpy which obviously is not as well paid as a job with BA but boy it's so much fun. I get to fly almost every day, and the coolest thing, I do actually get to do hands-on flying! Obviously I do not want to do this for the rest of my life but for now it's all I ever wanted. I am slightly worried because the industry has slowed down so dramatically but I know it will get better in the end. If I wanted to I could fork out the money for a TR with FR but this is not what I believe in!
When I started off with my training I wanted to get it done with the best possible fun factor but at the lowest cost, as I am certain there are ways around having to pay for the TR myself. I just wish everyone would do the same which would result in an overall increase in pay, but most importantly, an increase in respect towards the profession of us pilots as it would be a clear message to the managements. Anyway, enough of me ranting!
There were times when pilots were respected for what they did and were paid accordingly. People coming out of the sausage factories the likes of OAA or FTE to which they not only pay a totally overrated price for the training but also buy themselves into the jet job, e.g. FR, don't realize, as they are selfish and shortsighted, how much they actually hurt our profession and consequently themselves too. This makes me sick and bluntly speaking I have a complete lack of respect for those individuals.
Before people slack me off now as just being jelous let me tell you this, two years back I actually had the choice of going integrated or modular because I was and am in the fortunate position to have parents that are able to completely fund my training. However, the math simply did not make any sense to me because I want to make money with flying at one point in my life. Today I am just glad glad glad I went modular. Not only have I had the most exciting time over the last couple years, because I have flown a whole range of different aircraft, including traildraggers, and was not put in a cheap uniform made in China, in many parts of the States including the Bahamas, UK and Spain, but also got the training at about half the cost of if I had gone integrated.
I have just finished my training and already started my first job which is flying a 172 into different gras strips all over the UK doing aerial photograpy which obviously is not as well paid as a job with BA but boy it's so much fun. I get to fly almost every day, and the coolest thing, I do actually get to do hands-on flying! Obviously I do not want to do this for the rest of my life but for now it's all I ever wanted. I am slightly worried because the industry has slowed down so dramatically but I know it will get better in the end. If I wanted to I could fork out the money for a TR with FR but this is not what I believe in!
When I started off with my training I wanted to get it done with the best possible fun factor but at the lowest cost, as I am certain there are ways around having to pay for the TR myself. I just wish everyone would do the same which would result in an overall increase in pay, but most importantly, an increase in respect towards the profession of us pilots as it would be a clear message to the managements. Anyway, enough of me ranting!
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I just wonder where are the times when aviation enthusiasts marveled at the sky because they just wanted to fly anything and were happy if they could and did not care what they were flying. Today it's all about status. And a turboprop or smaller AC does not have that status to a great many. It makes me sad to see. Most young pilots used to grow into the industry gradually and had to earn their wings over many many hours before they were sat into an airliner. Today it's just about money not aptitude.
There were times when pilots were respected for what they did and were paid accordingly. People coming out of the sausage factories the likes of OAA or FTE to which they not only pay a totally overrated price for the training but also buy themselves into the jet job, e.g. FR, don't realize, as they are selfish and shortsighted, how much they actually hurt our profession and consequently themselves too. This makes me sick and bluntly speaking I have a complete lack of respect for those individuals.
Before people slack me off now as just being jelous let me tell you this, two years back I actually had the choice of going integrated or modular because I was and am in the fortunate position to have parents that are able to completely fund my training. However, the math simply did not make any sense to me because I want to make money with flying at one point in my life. Today I am just glad glad glad I went modular. Not only have I had the most exciting time over the last couple years, because I have flown a whole range of different aircraft, including traildraggers, and was not put in a cheap uniform made in China, in many parts of the States including the Bahamas, UK and Spain, but also got the training at about half the cost of if I had gone integrated.
I have just finished my training and already started my first job which is flying a 172 into different gras strips all over the UK doing aerial photograpy which obviously is not as well paid as a job with BA but boy it's so much fun. I get to fly almost every day, and the coolest thing, I do actually get to do hands-on flying! Obviously I do not want to do this for the rest of my life but for now it's all I ever wanted. I am slightly worried because the industry has slowed down so dramatically but I know it will get better in the end. If I wanted to I could fork out the money for a TR with FR but this is not what I believe in!
When I started off with my training I wanted to get it done with the best possible fun factor but at the lowest cost, as I am certain there are ways around having to pay for the TR myself. I just wish everyone would do the same which would result in an overall increase in pay, but most importantly, an increase in respect towards the profession of us pilots as it would be a clear message to the managements. Anyway, enough of me ranting!
There were times when pilots were respected for what they did and were paid accordingly. People coming out of the sausage factories the likes of OAA or FTE to which they not only pay a totally overrated price for the training but also buy themselves into the jet job, e.g. FR, don't realize, as they are selfish and shortsighted, how much they actually hurt our profession and consequently themselves too. This makes me sick and bluntly speaking I have a complete lack of respect for those individuals.
Before people slack me off now as just being jelous let me tell you this, two years back I actually had the choice of going integrated or modular because I was and am in the fortunate position to have parents that are able to completely fund my training. However, the math simply did not make any sense to me because I want to make money with flying at one point in my life. Today I am just glad glad glad I went modular. Not only have I had the most exciting time over the last couple years, because I have flown a whole range of different aircraft, including traildraggers, and was not put in a cheap uniform made in China, in many parts of the States including the Bahamas, UK and Spain, but also got the training at about half the cost of if I had gone integrated.
I have just finished my training and already started my first job which is flying a 172 into different gras strips all over the UK doing aerial photograpy which obviously is not as well paid as a job with BA but boy it's so much fun. I get to fly almost every day, and the coolest thing, I do actually get to do hands-on flying! Obviously I do not want to do this for the rest of my life but for now it's all I ever wanted. I am slightly worried because the industry has slowed down so dramatically but I know it will get better in the end. If I wanted to I could fork out the money for a TR with FR but this is not what I believe in!
When I started off with my training I wanted to get it done with the best possible fun factor but at the lowest cost, as I am certain there are ways around having to pay for the TR myself. I just wish everyone would do the same which would result in an overall increase in pay, but most importantly, an increase in respect towards the profession of us pilots as it would be a clear message to the managements. Anyway, enough of me ranting!
I don't think 'status' or money.. do you really believe that (as stated on here.. i think) an OAA graduate would turn down a job on a Q400 (for example) because it's not a 737/757/A32x? That's absurd.. why would they have gone for the job interview in the first place?
And you say about people buying their type ratings with Ryanair.. do you think just because they paid for it, it makes them a crap, unenthusiastic idiot? hardly, surely by that logic the person in question would never have done that because they know they would have to bring their own lunch with them!
Surely they will have all been put through tough sim sessions to see if they definitely do have what it takes not just because they've handed over some big fat cheque - the chief pilot wouldn't care about that would he?
I have to admit the OAA stereotype is starting to seem more obvious.. I do get the impression that some of them are unenthusiastic rich kids with a very naive view of it all... but I suppose thats the because of the course offered.. "Pay £65k and become an airline pilot!" - it doesn't "appear" to be the hard work, ups + downs, gritty modular way.
It is interesting that the fun factor has been mentioned.. that is definitely something i'm taking into account - and i'm leaning towards OAA on that one.. it does look a blast (bar the ground school
)
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If I was starting now. I would try to get on an integrated course quite simply because it's the quickest and frankly the easiest method. You go to a FTO, they train you, you work hard and at the end of a couple of years you're qualified........if I had the money or I could get the money.
If I hadn't got enough money but sufficient to go full time. I would do a full time modular course of some sort, probably in America. This is the commonest method for people who have worked for a while and borrowed or saved enough to train.
The worst method is to continue to work and borrow as you go. That method takes years and is fraught with difficulty. But quite often is only way for many people. And that is the method I was forced to use.
As for people's motivation. I'd say most are the same. But you will get more people on integrated courses who just want to be airline pilots because it looks like a 'cool' career. They could have been Doctors or Lawyers or whatever but chose pilot. Most of them would never survive the modular method because of the compromises and difficulties.
But at the end of the day, when it comes to actually flying an airliner. After a few months in the job. You won't notice the difference or even care. Statements like 'Integrated courses prepare you better for an airline career' may or may not be true but it's irrelevant because the majority of pilots come down the modular route and they seem to have perfectly adequate careers.
Daria's fate is to still believe in the more romantic view of flying. Indeed many of us still do. The one thing I will say to you Daria is the men in general don't like to express that attitude whether they think it or not. It's the old macho thing especially in groups of men and particularly young men with their excess of testosterone. Get one alone and you might find a different attitude. The macho view on flying is blatant here on PPRuNe. God forbid you wax lyrical on the subject. You'll be hammered from all sides. Remember it's and 'industry' now and none of your airy fairy 'slipped the surly bonds of Earth' poetic nonsense.
So all we talk about is the career progression and terms and conditions. Like it was just another Accountancy job.
You get the wrong sort in any business or website. Ignore them and do your own thing.
If I hadn't got enough money but sufficient to go full time. I would do a full time modular course of some sort, probably in America. This is the commonest method for people who have worked for a while and borrowed or saved enough to train.
The worst method is to continue to work and borrow as you go. That method takes years and is fraught with difficulty. But quite often is only way for many people. And that is the method I was forced to use.
As for people's motivation. I'd say most are the same. But you will get more people on integrated courses who just want to be airline pilots because it looks like a 'cool' career. They could have been Doctors or Lawyers or whatever but chose pilot. Most of them would never survive the modular method because of the compromises and difficulties.
But at the end of the day, when it comes to actually flying an airliner. After a few months in the job. You won't notice the difference or even care. Statements like 'Integrated courses prepare you better for an airline career' may or may not be true but it's irrelevant because the majority of pilots come down the modular route and they seem to have perfectly adequate careers.
Daria's fate is to still believe in the more romantic view of flying. Indeed many of us still do. The one thing I will say to you Daria is the men in general don't like to express that attitude whether they think it or not. It's the old macho thing especially in groups of men and particularly young men with their excess of testosterone. Get one alone and you might find a different attitude. The macho view on flying is blatant here on PPRuNe. God forbid you wax lyrical on the subject. You'll be hammered from all sides. Remember it's and 'industry' now and none of your airy fairy 'slipped the surly bonds of Earth' poetic nonsense.
So all we talk about is the career progression and terms and conditions. Like it was just another Accountancy job.
You get the wrong sort in any business or website. Ignore them and do your own thing.
