Is my flying school being a little unfair?
Join Date: Jul 2005
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You should NAME AND SHAME the flying school involved. Atleast that would then make them change their ripping off tactics. 
If i was you, i would bloody name and shame them, and then use your hard earned cash else where.
If i was you, i would bloody name and shame them, and then use your hard earned cash else where.
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It is disgraceful that any business would fail to advertise a charge before charging.
While it is true that time with an instructor is valuable for experience, they should only consider charging if they present a structured groundschool course as part of a PPL package.
All else is briefing time for flight training - for which you are already paying an agreed charge per flight hour.
While it is true that time with an instructor is valuable for experience, they should only consider charging if they present a structured groundschool course as part of a PPL package.
All else is briefing time for flight training - for which you are already paying an agreed charge per flight hour.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 25th Jul 2008 at 14:34.
Está servira para distraerle.
Perhaps not Cabair, it's a club that the poor fellow is/was training at.
It might be that it appears on one of the lists on this cumbersome website. One must be able to trim the things down but such niceties are beyond African dogs.
Maybe Nathan would like to asterix the offending organization and post it back so that those who advocate naming and shaming will know and he will not be compromised by having directly revealed the mob?
Today's Pilot - For people who fly
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I remember I was at UKFT in California, between lessons was talking to my instructor in the tea room area nothing formal and not scheduled in any way, next day landed with a bill for about $50, was not happy to say the least and questioned it, still ended up paying!!!
Join Date: Jun 2007
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I think you should name them as you could be saving someone else making the same mistake at some point in the future. Pprune is full of 'debates' on particular schools, this is how it allows people to use the information as part of their decision making process. It's admirable that you don't want to 'name and shame' them but all you are simply doing is passing on details of the experience you have gained of a particular outfit, so that others can benefit from your experience.
When I did my ppl recently, the school I went to operated a 2 hr slot booking system. That allowed aircraft walkaround, full brief and de-brief and you were only charged for actuall flying time. That normally gave you ample time and opportunity to discuss the specific lesson or anything else to that matter. If there wasn't a full days flying booked for the school, I could stay there all day chatting to the instructors if I wanted to, with no hint of being charged extra. In fact, they positively encouraged me to pop along and have a chat about things and said I could also study for the exams all day long there also.
As far as paying for 'ground school' was converned, I only paid for 2 sessions and it was made clear that I was receiving proper 'ground school' This was on a day when the weather was a wash out and I was given the opportunity to have specific tuition on something in a class room environment. One of the sessions was on PFLs and it was by no means mandatory and was £30 for an hour, but it was worthwhile to cover something which is a bit more complex in detail. And that 1 hour turned into about 2 hrs classroom tuition for £30.
So it's important with any school that it's made clear what is classed as ground school and what you are likely to be charged for!
That's just to give you an insight into how another school operated and to illustrate that they aren't all the same! I think it would have cost me about £20k for my ppl if I had to pay £30 for every little chat!
So don't have any qualms about naming them (possibly after you have found another one) to allow others to help make informed decisions.
Good luck with the rest of your training!!
When I did my ppl recently, the school I went to operated a 2 hr slot booking system. That allowed aircraft walkaround, full brief and de-brief and you were only charged for actuall flying time. That normally gave you ample time and opportunity to discuss the specific lesson or anything else to that matter. If there wasn't a full days flying booked for the school, I could stay there all day chatting to the instructors if I wanted to, with no hint of being charged extra. In fact, they positively encouraged me to pop along and have a chat about things and said I could also study for the exams all day long there also.
As far as paying for 'ground school' was converned, I only paid for 2 sessions and it was made clear that I was receiving proper 'ground school' This was on a day when the weather was a wash out and I was given the opportunity to have specific tuition on something in a class room environment. One of the sessions was on PFLs and it was by no means mandatory and was £30 for an hour, but it was worthwhile to cover something which is a bit more complex in detail. And that 1 hour turned into about 2 hrs classroom tuition for £30.
So it's important with any school that it's made clear what is classed as ground school and what you are likely to be charged for!
That's just to give you an insight into how another school operated and to illustrate that they aren't all the same! I think it would have cost me about £20k for my ppl if I had to pay £30 for every little chat!
So don't have any qualms about naming them (possibly after you have found another one) to allow others to help make informed decisions.
Good luck with the rest of your training!!
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Be carefull
A couple of words of caution:-
1) You may well save money by paying for the course upfront but be carefull if you go over the hours allocated. You'll have to find some more money to cover that. Also if the club/business/school goes bust you may well loose all that money. I worked for a school that went under and alot of students lost alot of money.
2) Aviation is a small world. If you name the club it may come back to haunt.
Personally I would name them and I think 119.35 you should name your club too, good and bad.
1) You may well save money by paying for the course upfront but be carefull if you go over the hours allocated. You'll have to find some more money to cover that. Also if the club/business/school goes bust you may well loose all that money. I worked for a school that went under and alot of students lost alot of money.
2) Aviation is a small world. If you name the club it may come back to haunt.
Personally I would name them and I think 119.35 you should name your club too, good and bad.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Hi,
First I think all charges should be clear and up front.
Second I think ground school should be charged for especially if the instructor is paid on a per hour basis. After all you pay your plumber from the time he leaves home, not just for the time he has a spanner in his hand.
I always charge for the long briefs (Circuits, PFL, NAVx, Complex conversions) because to do them well takes a good few hours and I'd rather be flying than sitting in a classroom on a hot day. As someone pointed out £20 on good ground school saves more than that in the air.
18
First I think all charges should be clear and up front.
Second I think ground school should be charged for especially if the instructor is paid on a per hour basis. After all you pay your plumber from the time he leaves home, not just for the time he has a spanner in his hand.
I always charge for the long briefs (Circuits, PFL, NAVx, Complex conversions) because to do them well takes a good few hours and I'd rather be flying than sitting in a classroom on a hot day. As someone pointed out £20 on good ground school saves more than that in the air.
18
As an ex instructor my take on this is as follows:-
You pay a 'per hour' rate for your flying or an agreed amount for a 45 hour ppl course. Included in that is the cost of the briefings because the PPL syllabus as per the JAR syllabus, includes a briefing before each exercise. (How else are you to understand what you're supposed to be doing without structured ground school?)
If you wish to pay for extra tuition then you ask for it and have it at a time separate to your flight training, ie when the wx is too poor to fly or on an evening. That way it is agreed what you are paying for (ie instructors time) and also you can pay for as much or as little of the tuition you need for passing the ppl exams.
If you aren't advised by an instructor that you will be charged for his time, there and then, I wouldn't expect you to pay.
There are some real 'suckhole' instructors around and sounds like you met up with one of them.
In this present economic climate, it's easy to say the schools are trying to fleece as much cash out of students but in reality, they should be treating the students with a bit more respect as that is where their income is from.
Find a different school Nathan. Sounds like they might just 'extend' your training, using the excuse you need further training and make more out of you than is really necessary. Think about it. If you're happy with this sort of practice you've experienced then carry on. Personally, I would change schools.
There are some really good instructors out there.
You pay a 'per hour' rate for your flying or an agreed amount for a 45 hour ppl course. Included in that is the cost of the briefings because the PPL syllabus as per the JAR syllabus, includes a briefing before each exercise. (How else are you to understand what you're supposed to be doing without structured ground school?)
If you wish to pay for extra tuition then you ask for it and have it at a time separate to your flight training, ie when the wx is too poor to fly or on an evening. That way it is agreed what you are paying for (ie instructors time) and also you can pay for as much or as little of the tuition you need for passing the ppl exams.
If you aren't advised by an instructor that you will be charged for his time, there and then, I wouldn't expect you to pay.
There are some real 'suckhole' instructors around and sounds like you met up with one of them.
In this present economic climate, it's easy to say the schools are trying to fleece as much cash out of students but in reality, they should be treating the students with a bit more respect as that is where their income is from.
Find a different school Nathan. Sounds like they might just 'extend' your training, using the excuse you need further training and make more out of you than is really necessary. Think about it. If you're happy with this sort of practice you've experienced then carry on. Personally, I would change schools.
There are some really good instructors out there.
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Have a look around for an other school my friend, any one charges me for any thing with out telling the price first, isnt a good person/club to trust.
Sorry its the way i feel!
Good luck nathan.
Just take it on the chin and move on fella.
Regards
TWW
Sorry its the way i feel!
Good luck nathan.
Just take it on the chin and move on fella.
Regards
TWW
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Cheeky!
At my club I pay for the hours I fly, the exams I take and any named ground school I sign up for. I've had hours of little chats with my instructor, on no fly days mostly, and they haven't cost me a penny. Especially the first hour where he told me what I'd be paying for and how much everything was likely to cost!
So no, I'd say what you experienced is not the norm, spend your money elsewhere.
Cheers all.
Oh, and the hours you fly are the hours you fly. It all costs the same, and adds up the same in the end. I've had the odd 1.1 hour lesson, and the odd 0.9 hour one, the point is you should only pay for the time you fly, which'll be on the tacho. (I think!)
So no, I'd say what you experienced is not the norm, spend your money elsewhere.
Cheers all.
Oh, and the hours you fly are the hours you fly. It all costs the same, and adds up the same in the end. I've had the odd 1.1 hour lesson, and the odd 0.9 hour one, the point is you should only pay for the time you fly, which'll be on the tacho. (I think!)
Last edited by JohnRayner; 26th Jul 2008 at 19:30. Reason: forgot to mention summink.
