Growing Evidence That The Upturn Is Upon Us
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WWW
I am sorry to say that your last post was just about the most arrogant, judgmental and negative outpouring that I have seen in a long time.
I gag when I see this sort of superior all knowing advice and sentiment dished up by the self appointed good and great, to describe any ones efforts in any form of education as tragic footsteps and expended energy wastefully achieving goals which have proved pointless.
Having grown up in the early 70's and had the "benefit" of a state education the appalling quality of which is now the subject of a number of recent social historic academic works I can tell you a little about "tragic".
The education and preparation for life that these schools gave was very poor , in short I and a lot of other people had an education that only set us up for failure, imposed upon us by an arrogant but (I suppose?) well meaning middle class teachers who of course sincerely offered poor advice that completely undermined any sort of self confidence an further ambition......................
If you really want to see tragic footsteps then just take a look at the friends reunited page for my school, a whole bunch people who did not even come near reaching there full potential largely because they believed the "advice" from the self appointed experts.
Like WWW I don't think the integrated course is the way to go at the moment
and would advise a slow modular route while keeping a job, what I won't do is deride peoples efforts to better then selves and batter guys self confidence with posts like the one above.
As one who school no doubt put in WWW's no hopers pigeon hole I can tell you is was tough in the late 80's & early 90's especially when you had as I three tenths of
all in the way of qualifications but if you guys just keep at it the economic worm will turn in your favour.
Just remember guys the situation at the moment is a bit "tragic" ......................what you have embarked upon is NOT despite the efforts of some to tell you otherwise.
I gag when I see this sort of superior all knowing advice and sentiment dished up by the self appointed good and great, to describe any ones efforts in any form of education as tragic footsteps and expended energy wastefully achieving goals which have proved pointless.
Having grown up in the early 70's and had the "benefit" of a state education the appalling quality of which is now the subject of a number of recent social historic academic works I can tell you a little about "tragic".
The education and preparation for life that these schools gave was very poor , in short I and a lot of other people had an education that only set us up for failure, imposed upon us by an arrogant but (I suppose?) well meaning middle class teachers who of course sincerely offered poor advice that completely undermined any sort of self confidence an further ambition......................
If you really want to see tragic footsteps then just take a look at the friends reunited page for my school, a whole bunch people who did not even come near reaching there full potential largely because they believed the "advice" from the self appointed experts.
Like WWW I don't think the integrated course is the way to go at the moment
and would advise a slow modular route while keeping a job, what I won't do is deride peoples efforts to better then selves and batter guys self confidence with posts like the one above.
As one who school no doubt put in WWW's no hopers pigeon hole I can tell you is was tough in the late 80's & early 90's especially when you had as I three tenths of
all in the way of qualifications but if you guys just keep at it the economic worm will turn in your favour.Just remember guys the situation at the moment is a bit "tragic" ......................what you have embarked upon is NOT despite the efforts of some to tell you otherwise.
Well that's quite a rant.
Do you think I went to Eton or something? Several of my year and two of my class have done long stretches for drugs and violence. I have the distinction of being the ONLY student who gained an A grade at A-level in my school - it was not good. We could do a 'three yorkshiremen' sketch about the shortcomings of our schools all day A&C and neither of us would win..
My reference to the 'pointless goals' was limited to the people who have worked so hard and spent so much to gain CPL/IR's in the last 18 months. These time expiring qualifications have been pointlessly acquired at great time, skill and cost against a background of near zero employment prospects. That is all I wanted to illustrate to those thinking about imminently following suit.
The fit that survive will be the ones who have delayed their training and whom will enter the employment market at the appropriate time. Thats the brutal truth.
A&C you ALWAYS perceive what I write as being arrogant, judgmental and negative and you often pop up to say so. Do you never look at my posting record and note the times when I've described the current climes as being 'a golden age for wannabes' or see the times I've described the job as ' the best in the world'.
There are peaks and troughs in this industry for Wannabes. My decade+ record here shows that I trumpet both.
Without shame I pump out a negative message at present. I have been proved right to have done so. Even without that the message is but a whisper in the storm of spin and marketing which is directed by the Vested Interests towards Wannabes.
WWW
Do you think I went to Eton or something? Several of my year and two of my class have done long stretches for drugs and violence. I have the distinction of being the ONLY student who gained an A grade at A-level in my school - it was not good. We could do a 'three yorkshiremen' sketch about the shortcomings of our schools all day A&C and neither of us would win..
My reference to the 'pointless goals' was limited to the people who have worked so hard and spent so much to gain CPL/IR's in the last 18 months. These time expiring qualifications have been pointlessly acquired at great time, skill and cost against a background of near zero employment prospects. That is all I wanted to illustrate to those thinking about imminently following suit.
The fit that survive will be the ones who have delayed their training and whom will enter the employment market at the appropriate time. Thats the brutal truth.
A&C you ALWAYS perceive what I write as being arrogant, judgmental and negative and you often pop up to say so. Do you never look at my posting record and note the times when I've described the current climes as being 'a golden age for wannabes' or see the times I've described the job as ' the best in the world'.
There are peaks and troughs in this industry for Wannabes. My decade+ record here shows that I trumpet both.
Without shame I pump out a negative message at present. I have been proved right to have done so. Even without that the message is but a whisper in the storm of spin and marketing which is directed by the Vested Interests towards Wannabes.
WWW
WWW - 2 years ago you were saying it was a good time to start training. In my experience 2 years is about the length of time it takes a person to go from Zero to Hero on the modular route. I followed your advice and recently got a job. 
Is it not the case that we all agree that starting integrated courses in the current climate is bonkers unless you're wealthy, and even if you go modular, take it slow and plan for a period of unemployment? Perhaps A and C simply rejects your attitude to the whole recession thing, rather than the message you convey - but we've already discussed that issue ad infinitum and ad nauseam.
Is it not the case that we all agree that starting integrated courses in the current climate is bonkers unless you're wealthy, and even if you go modular, take it slow and plan for a period of unemployment? Perhaps A and C simply rejects your attitude to the whole recession thing, rather than the message you convey - but we've already discussed that issue ad infinitum and ad nauseam.
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WWW
If what Mikehotel152 has to say is true is rather points to your posts of two years ago being advice that would set up people for the tragic failure that you talk of and plunged them into the job market at this hopeless time.
I am very pleased that MH152 has bucked the trend and now has a job, this is no doubt due to hard work and determination.
Any way I shall keep "popping up" and having the odd rant when I think that you have overstepped the mark, in the meantime I will continue to offer encouragement and practical help to wannabes tempered with realistic view of the state of the business.
I am very pleased that MH152 has bucked the trend and now has a job, this is no doubt due to hard work and determination.
Any way I shall keep "popping up" and having the odd rant when I think that you have overstepped the mark, in the meantime I will continue to offer encouragement and practical help to wannabes tempered with realistic view of the state of the business.
Last edited by A and C; 26th Jun 2009 at 09:45.
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Practical as in run your business which garners income from wannabees?
Or practical in that you never miss a chance to plug that business here on PPRuNe?
Or practical as in steering wannabees towards choices that require an element of hour building for most?
PPRuNe will remain a counterpoint to those who make their living from wannabees.
Rob
Or practical in that you never miss a chance to plug that business here on PPRuNe?
Or practical as in steering wannabees towards choices that require an element of hour building for most?
PPRuNe will remain a counterpoint to those who make their living from wannabees.
Rob
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PPRuNe towers
Yes I do run a business that supplys a service to wannabes and yes I will plug it when I get the chance.
I like to think that I offer a quality product at a keen price, but of course profit is a dirty word in the UK but without it nothing at all would happen.
However my customers have already decided upon the modular route by the time they get to the hours building stage, the practical help that I give is far beond just renting very clean and well maintained aircraft, Just ask my customers because they are the best publicity that I have.
Oh thanks for the chance the plug my business
I like to think that I offer a quality product at a keen price, but of course profit is a dirty word in the UK but without it nothing at all would happen.
However my customers have already decided upon the modular route by the time they get to the hours building stage, the practical help that I give is far beond just renting very clean and well maintained aircraft, Just ask my customers because they are the best publicity that I have.
Oh thanks for the chance the plug my business
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Thanks for that A+C,
You've amply displayed how so many of the voices here have an agenda. A business succeeding regardless of whether there are any jobs for wannabees to graduate to.
Rob
You've amply displayed how so many of the voices here have an agenda. A business succeeding regardless of whether there are any jobs for wannabees to graduate to.
Rob
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A and C
Sorry but you are losing credibility here. It really is amazing how alot of the "dispellers" of what WWW is saying are people who make money from wannabes, who are quick to defend the industry no matter what state the economy is in, who are quick to rubbish anyone who dares to tell people not to train, who are quick to call impartial people like WWW arrogant.
The common denominator here is that these people are people who have something to gain out of wannabes like yourself. Your opinions are based on an ulterior motive, and that motive is to make money.
Anyone with ½ a brain will know it isn't a good time to train. You know it, and I know it.
However that "good time" may not be far away. But for now I'd listen to WWWs advice over yours any day of the week.
Have a great weekend.
D777
Sorry but you are losing credibility here. It really is amazing how alot of the "dispellers" of what WWW is saying are people who make money from wannabes, who are quick to defend the industry no matter what state the economy is in, who are quick to rubbish anyone who dares to tell people not to train, who are quick to call impartial people like WWW arrogant.
The common denominator here is that these people are people who have something to gain out of wannabes like yourself. Your opinions are based on an ulterior motive, and that motive is to make money.
Anyone with ½ a brain will know it isn't a good time to train. You know it, and I know it.
However that "good time" may not be far away. But for now I'd listen to WWWs advice over yours any day of the week.
Have a great weekend.
D777
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Hi everyone, i haven't posted in a while as i've been busy at OAA. Coming close to the end of my OAA course (just got a first time pass in my IR 
). No sign of a job 
but i do have an interview with Flybe 
(no way i'm going anywhere near RA)
I'll keep you posted if i do get a job however it's really tough out there
). No sign of a job but i do have an interview with Flybe (no way i'm going anywhere near RA)I'll keep you posted if i do get a job however it's really tough out there
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Heli Port.....
Firstly, sincere congrats on the first time IR pass...nice work! Just a quicky on the Flybe interview you mentioned? I thought they had totally stopped recruiting? I've just finished my CPL and am about to start my IR at one of Flybe's 'favourite' school's (Cabair, FTE, OAA, Atlantic, Aero's, PTC and PAT)..... aparantly they've said they aren't taking any recommendations or referrals for the forseeable future from any of the above mentioned FTO's??? Interesting news if Flybe are still taking recommendations from OAA. Not sure how they are fairing at the moment but they seem to be very busy at EGHI even though they're summer schedule has been cut here and there.
Very best of luck with the interview, I work on the ramp at Southampton (one of Flybe's main base's) and they seem a friendly and vibrant airline to work for so wish you all the best mate!
2W2R
Firstly, sincere congrats on the first time IR pass...nice work! Just a quicky on the Flybe interview you mentioned? I thought they had totally stopped recruiting? I've just finished my CPL and am about to start my IR at one of Flybe's 'favourite' school's (Cabair, FTE, OAA, Atlantic, Aero's, PTC and PAT)..... aparantly they've said they aren't taking any recommendations or referrals for the forseeable future from any of the above mentioned FTO's??? Interesting news if Flybe are still taking recommendations from OAA. Not sure how they are fairing at the moment but they seem to be very busy at EGHI even though they're summer schedule has been cut here and there.
Very best of luck with the interview, I work on the ramp at Southampton (one of Flybe's main base's) and they seem a friendly and vibrant airline to work for so wish you all the best mate!
2W2R
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Do you think I went to Eton or something? Several of my year and two of my class have done long stretches for drugs and violence. I have the distinction of being the ONLY student who gained an A grade at A-level in my school - it was not good. We could do a 'three yorkshiremen' sketch about the shortcomings of our schools all day A&C and neither of us would win..
. I swear if you could award the nobel lauriate for aviation greats you'd award yourself. This thread should be renamed 'How great is WWW...' He has a swimming pool, pilot job, came from a bad school and dispenses all his knowledge to us feeble beings aspiring to the good life.WWW, we are not worthy....
You've got an inferiority complex mate. Stop ego
nking. Please...
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Flying_Shortly shut up you ignoramus, you're the one with the inferiority complex. You don't even know the guy. He speaks nothing but the facts, if you don't like it, don't read it. And don't say you are kidding again, number one, alot of truth is said in jest and number 2, you've said it countless times. It contributes nothing. You are probably working for an FTO, you seem like the sort. Now pipe down.
Again that isn't as a pilot is it? I have mates working there (as pilots) who say there is definately no recruitment until at least the beginning of next year and that was backed up by the HR lady there. If you have managed to get one as a pilot you should go and buy a lottery ticket because you are VERY lucky, especally having finished so recently.
but i do have an interview with Flybe
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Using phrases such as "no hopers" and suggesting that those currently finishing their fATPL studies are not "the fittest" doesn't exactly make the target audience want to sit up and listen. People will read their own context.
No matter how correct the message, nor how noble the cause, if it isn't delivered in a way that will make people want to listen...
No matter how correct the message, nor how noble the cause, if it isn't delivered in a way that will make people want to listen...
Au Contraire
The reference to no hopers was specific to the postings where people couldn't master basic spelling. This is an ongoing theme in aviation training. Those that have the money, spend the money, but will never earn the money. Seen it, taught it, talk about it.
Survival of the fittest was once again a comment on someone elses posting. The most fit right now are the ones who HAVE NOT spent any money getting an IR or an ATPL exam sequence. They are fit because their PPL and CPL and hours do not expire - they merely exist in a logbook, forever at no cost. Those that have acquired a Multi rating or an Instrument Rating are counting down against a £392hr clock.
I make people sit up and listen.
You just don't necessarily like it.
3 years ago I was pumping out the message to do an Integrated course, apply to CTC and to self sponsor your type rating if need be. I called it 'a golden age for wannabesim'.
Read your own context as is your right. But without knowing your history you're only going to make yourself look ignorant.
WWW
ps Flying_Shortly - now you mention it, you're not worthy, you're banned for a week - goodbye.
The reference to no hopers was specific to the postings where people couldn't master basic spelling. This is an ongoing theme in aviation training. Those that have the money, spend the money, but will never earn the money. Seen it, taught it, talk about it.
Survival of the fittest was once again a comment on someone elses posting. The most fit right now are the ones who HAVE NOT spent any money getting an IR or an ATPL exam sequence. They are fit because their PPL and CPL and hours do not expire - they merely exist in a logbook, forever at no cost. Those that have acquired a Multi rating or an Instrument Rating are counting down against a £392hr clock.
I make people sit up and listen.
You just don't necessarily like it.
3 years ago I was pumping out the message to do an Integrated course, apply to CTC and to self sponsor your type rating if need be. I called it 'a golden age for wannabesim'.
Read your own context as is your right. But without knowing your history you're only going to make yourself look ignorant.
WWW
ps Flying_Shortly - now you mention it, you're not worthy, you're banned for a week - goodbye.
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Quote 'ps Flying_Shortly - now you mention it, you're not worthy, you're banned for a week - goodbye. 
So why did you bar him WWW? Ah, just got it...Because you can!
Regards
So why did you bar him WWW? Ah, just got it...Because you can!
Regards
I think it was more to do with the unnecessary use of offensive language. If you can't express yourself without using those sort of words, (even if they're covered up with an emoticon) don't express yourself at all.
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The reference to no hopers was specific to the postings where people couldn't master basic spelling.
HAVE NOT spent any monty
(sorry couldn't resist)
Survival of the fittest was once again a comment on someone elses posting. The most fit right now are the ones who HAVE NOT spent any monty getting an IR or an ATPL exam sequence. They are fit because their PPL and CPL and hours do not expire - they merely exist in a logbook, forever at no cost. Those that have acquired a Multi rating or an Instrument Rating are counting down against a £392hr clock.
I think it comes down to the issue of money. If you can afford to keep yourself current then I would rather be on the 'keeping current' rather than the training end of the proverbial drag curve. Personally I’m going to buy a share in an aircraft once my licenses are done (probably a da42) and keep current and building hours.
student88 - please point me towards the offensive language so I can moderate it.
Thanks,
WWW
Thanks,
WWW
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You just don't necessarily like it.
For the record, I understand what you are trying to do here, agree with it and admire your efforts towards what is quite obviously a thankless task. However... if you are interested in reaching the target audience (the person just about to sign on the dotted line) then I beleive more could be acheived by toning down the rhetoric, which has become particularly strong recently.
Is the message really getting through? I see that Oxford is putting on an extra course due to not being able to meet demand on its August / September Integrated course!!
You hear lots of people saying that they don't even read pprune anymore because of the relentless slagging off of anyone who wants to train. As such, no matter how much good advice is given here, it won't even reach those most in need of hearing it. And all because its just delivered in such a rude way.
Flying Shortly's last post quite deservedly earned him "a rest" for his language, however, his feelings represent the silent majority here of hundreds of wannabes who equally deservedly feel a bit miffed at being called all manner of names for daring to suggest they want to fly professionally.
How about greater emphasis of the fact that the recruitment cycle by its very nature means things will inevitably pick up again at some time in the future? And that successful and enjoyable careers in aviation will still be there for those people willing to sit out this downturn for however long it lasts.
More people would listen.
