Prospective OAT Student

[WQ - ingo]

Ok i see what you're saying and consider you're experience but i still disagree with you.

rent food and bills (80 quid a month) come to 400

I take it you meant a £80 wk? I won't be paying rent/bills and at the moment in london i'm living off £20 wk foodwise and have been since october.

my life insurance, loss of licence insurance, and mobile bill cost me another 100 quid a month

I don't have life insurance nor loss of license insurance and i pay £15 month mobile contract.

Car (petrol) costs me say 80 quid a month

Don't have a car as i mentioned before - i would be cycling, house is 1 mile from the airport.

60 quid off the credit card a month (trying to pay the bugger off!)

In absolutely no way would i ever even dream of getting a credit card so that counts that out.

then around 75 quid a week to use for my own use

What are you doing with it? I can understand going to the pub for a few but £75 week? Surely not? On saying that i can't disagree with you, maybe this is accurate?

most of the guys I know here don't want to have to live on a shoestring because it's a bloody hard slog!

When you're investing ridiculous amounts of money into a career you've always dreamed about i think it's a fairly reasonable compromise? Although It doesn't have to be if you go about it sensibly.

Having said that, if you can live off 250 quid a month, good luck to you...but it won't be easy and you won't have any margin for relaxing which as anyone who has done this will tell you is heartbreaking when your mates are out 'socialising' on friday after being in groundschool all week, or when they go for a trip somewhere and you have to decline...

Seems rather defeatist to me! I can imagine after groundschool financially i'll be ok to do what i want after the amount of hours i'll have been sat at my desk not spending money?

My point is sometimes you need to rid yourself of the flash and unnecessary things that burn holes in ur pockets to be able to do what you want. I for one am confident of sticking to a low budget as i have done it for the majority of this year and have hardly missed out on 'socializing'. I've travelled europe, spent very little, lived in london, spending very little and probably been out on average around 3 times a week!

I fully take into consideration what you have laid out and maybe i'm being unrealistic i can't be sure, as for arizona i have no idea!

Aside from this what extra costs am i likely to incur?

Thanks,

WQ.

[Flying Wild]

Knowing cfwake as I do, he isn't exactly going and drinking all his cash away each weekend. Maybe every other... I digress...

Anyhow, I live around 40 miles from Oxford and commute each day. I'm in the beneficial position of living in a house owned by my folks, so don't have to worry about rent. Living costs run to about £450 a month (including fuel). I'm not one to be going out on the town a great deal. In fact, during this course I became somewhat of a social hermit. I knew I'd have to make some sacrifices for the course, so no problems there. If I was living a mile away from the airport, then I could probably happily exist on £200 a month.

cfwake mentioned life and loss of license insurance. I would heartily recommend that you take these out if you commence a course. Life insurance particularly... planes do crash, and I doubt your folks would appreciate having to pay off the loan by themselves... A rather morbid thought, but necessary.

What I would say is that with the current economic climate, I'm sure it won't be long before OAA start adding fuel surcharges to the course costs. It could happen before you start, or halfway through, and the T&Cs you sign at the start permit them to do so whenever they choose. The cost of fuel is definately going to be impacting on profits this year.
I'm surprised that there are still so many people willing to risk so much money on a course with no guarantee of a job at the end. Several hundred prospective students came along to a recent open day. If I was starting out now, instead of when I did, I would probably look for something more earth-bound for a career. Remember, OAA customer services are there to sell spaces on courses. If people aren't coming through the door, their careers are on the line...

[WQ - ingo]

Yes i think the life insurance will be high on the agenda but as far as my budget goes i feel i'm fairly safe saying £200/250 month..

Have you any idea idea of the costs over in the U.S?

I took this from the website:

The following are included in the Course Price:

• Complete ATPL(A) Integrated Course
• Accommodation at OAA Goodyear
• Skills Security – Money Back Guarantee
• Employment Services
• Extra-Curricular Activities
• Skills Development Training
• Bank funding assistance
• All OAA Training Manuals & IFR Guides
• Navigation, Approach & Landing Fees
• Planning and Navigation Equipment
• OAA Uniform & Leather Flight Bag
• Aircrew Headset
• Return flights from London to Phoenix
• Travel insurance
• Emergency medical insurance at Goodyear
• Graduation & Awards Luncheon

The following are additional:

• Accommodation at Oxford
• Meals at Oxford & Goodyear
• UK CAA Skills Tests & Licence Issue Fees
• JAA Medical renewal

Now we've sorted out the accom and meals at ox, not goodyear.

Anyone know how much the other two are likely to set me back?

Also came across this on the price page;

APPFO Regulatory and Exam Fees (price effective from 1st October 2008) £5,000

Anyone got any ideas as to what this is?

I can understand with what you're saying regarding the industry but it's like most things, you never know until you try.. This is my dream and it's now of never.. I chose OAA as it's best suited to me as an individual and will need all the help i can get! I don't think i have the capacity to go modular!

Regards,

WQ.

[Shiver me timbers!]

- Class One medical is approx £317.
- License fee issuances will easily come to £500+ inc. ratings.


Also, ask about aircraft hire for tests - this could easily be an additional £600+. What about Visas? Bristol Q bank? Oh yeah - don't forget your type rating for Ryanair - that's an additional £20k

I'm sure there are quite a few other hidden extras. All prices are based on completing course in minimum time - It would be a massive gamble to not budget for additional hours.

[WQ - ingo]

The type rating does set me back - possibly out of my limits? Possibly Flybe or BA are possible options?

Up until monday june 30th 112 graduates in 2008 have found employment with the airlines. Now i'm not sure out of how many graduates the 112 stood so cant be sure as to the % employment rate. Maybe if anyone knows how many on average are taken on per month/few months - however it works - it would give me a basic idea?

[99jolegg]

Yes they are possible, but the odds are low, so it's a gamble of £80,000.

[Rhodes13]

WQ - ingo you seem to like ignoring advice given to you.

200 pounds a month is being extremely optimistic. Oxford is an expensive place and I can almost guarantee that you should budget about 300 pounds minimum a month. Riding to school whilst a nice though could be impractical in the heavy rain and cold of winter, and have you given a though to the weight of those books you'll be lugging around?

Then there is the problem of passing all flying on minimum time. Its not uncommon to partial pass the IR so then youll have to budget on yet more money to get more hours and more test fees up to the required standard.

Like its been said before you will be entering the industry at the worst time. Have you budgeted on no job for 6 months? How will you pay mum and dad back?

I wish that Oxford students would get BA out of their head. Your chances of getting a job their are slim. It would be much more prudent to plan on getting no job at all or taking the FIRST job you are given the chance to join. Interesting fact but the majority of current students are going to the low cost carriers.

One has to ask why you want to go to OAA. They produce the same product and they charge a premium for it. You would be much better placed to go modular and save that money. Especially seeing as its your mum and dads house that is at stake.

[cfwake]

WQ, as far as budgeting per month, it doesn't really bother me too much, it is doable but it is very optimistic and you won't have much chance to relax and unwind which leaves you feeling left out of your course. But if you'd be unable to afford to fund your own type rating and you know this for a fact now, why are you forging ahead with the course?! You will have a strong probability of going somewhere where paying your own TR will be necessary, and you'll feel rpetty hacked off when you end up unemployed because you relied on getting a job where you didn't pay for it!

Seriously, it's not a good time to start training, the time is actually NOT now or never, it's more than likely NEXT year or never. You could always get a job, earn money so you can boost your savings then going onto the course when you see the industry is at the beginning of the upslope? Look at the past troughs in the industry. How long until the airlines recovered? Planning is key.

Also yes, up till now employment at OAA has pretty much been as strong and positive as ever. What about over the next six months? Are you going to bet that they'll stay linear?!

[Raving RHAG Muncher]

Yet another person brainwashed by the Oxford mob. Do yourself a favour, open your ears and take some advice.

Pull your head out of the clouds and re-think your budget. You are away with the cuckoos, otherwise you can come around here and sort my budget out. I must be doing something wrong!

I remember being in your position - there was nothing I wanted more than a flying career. Don't be blinded by the lights though. It is a lot of money and a shady outlook at the moment. I not sure I'd do it all over again, not at the present time anyway.

Best of luck.

[WQ - ingo]

Rhodes13:

200 pounds a month is being extremely optimistic. Oxford is an expensive place and I can almost guarantee that you should budget about 300 pounds minimum a month

Well considering i budgeted £250, not far off.

Riding to school whilst a nice though could be impractical in the heavy rain and cold of winter, and have you given a though to the weight of those books you'll be lugging around?

I don't see your point? It's a mile! Throughout this year i've cycled rain, sleet or snow across central london to get to the library carrying copious amounts of heavy books everyday!

Then there is the problem of passing all flying on minimum time. Its not uncommon to partial pass the IR so then youll have to budget on yet more money to get more hours and more test fees up to the required standard.

That i agree with which is why i asked..

Like its been said before you will be entering the industry at the worst time. Have you budgeted on no job for 6 months? How will you pay mum and dad back?

This is my main concern.

I wish that Oxford students would get BA out of their head. Your chances of getting a job their are slim. It would be much more prudent to plan on getting no job at all or taking the FIRST job you are given the chance to join. Interesting fact but the majority of current students are going to the low cost carriers.

I don't have BA in my head and will accept any airline job, All APPFO cadets are considered by BA for the SSP though..

cfwake:

But if you'd be unable to afford to fund your own type rating and you know this for a fact now, why are you forging ahead with the course?! You will have a strong probability of going somewhere where paying your own TR will be necessary, and you'll feel rpetty hacked off when you end up unemployed because you relied on getting a job where you didn't pay for it!

This area is my main concern and the fact that i probably couldn't afford a TR indeed worries me..

Also yes, up till now employment at OAA has pretty much been as strong and positive as ever. What about over the next six months? Are you going to bet that they'll stay linear?!

If i start training in jan it won't be until 2010 that i start job hunting.

Raving RHAG Muncher:

Yet another person brainwashed by the Oxford mob. Do yourself a favour, open your ears and take some advice.

..... slightly unnecessary? Constructive criticism goes along way rather than idiotic patronizing.

So the general consensus i get is that oaa is a bad idea, unless you have a pot of gold to hand over to which ever airine comes knocking, and that now is not the right time to begin training in our current unsustainable industry?

Regards,

WQ.

[cfwake]

In my opinion, OAA is a good choice, the timing for going is a bad one!!!

[Flying Wild]

Originally Posted by WQ- ingo

So the general consensus i get is that oaa is a bad idea, unless you have a pot of gold to hand over to which ever airine comes knocking, and that now is not the right time to begin training in our current unsustainable industry?

I wouldn't say that it is OAA itself which is a bad idea, you could lump going to CTC or Cabair into the same boat - it is intergrated training which is the potential issue here.
As I've said, if I were to be considering going for an intergrated course at one of the organisations mentioned, I'd be taking a long hard look at potential outcomes and contingencies. Odds are that I personally wouldn't go through with it as things stand now.

At the end of the day, you should conduct the research and make the choice yourself. Asking the question here is a step in the right direction.

[Flying Wild]

Originally Posted by cfwake

In my opinion, OAA is a good choice, the timing for going is a bad one!!!

You would say that though, wouldn't you... Think you've got something on your nose there mate...

[cfwake]

That's the smell of desire, m'lady!

[WQ - ingo]

Yes i agree with you on that one.. maybe a should put it off for the next few years and go earn some money..

[Togodumnus]

If money is literally not an issue for you and an airline career is what you want then OAT is probably best place to go (though have not heard any bad words for CTC), but only if money is no object!

I'm on the modular route and at the end of both our training we will have exactly the same licence and many others I know who have completed their training (by modular) through to a type rating are working in the right hand seat for differing airlines. Also at the end of my training I'll have spent probably less than half of the dosh that you'll give to Oxford!

All schools pretend to have a great association with an airline or operator, maybe they do maybe they don't and it is only a very, very lucky few who come through at the right time that will benefit.

[MIKECR]

About the most likely outcome of going to OAA jus now is a job with Ryanair. I think there stats for this year tell it all. Thats 70 to 80 k for your course, and anothe 25 k for your TR. Theres also no pay for the first 3 months, only half pay for the next 6 months.

Thats 100k you'll be spending. As a slight aside, Ryanair dont give a monkeys 2 hoots what kind(modular/integrated) of student they take. save your cash and go modular given the current climate. You'll get the same job at the end of the day

[charliejulietthotel]

How big is the flat in kiddles? if it's more than a one bedroom, consider getting a flat mate, money they bring in, you can afford the beers! one week in HMP Langford and people are desperate for out, so you might actually be able to make money, a first at OAT! good luck in your decision.

[Night_fr8]

Having read all to pro's and con's here, I feel that a parents viewpoint is probably valid.
I have just supported my son through OAA at a monthly allowance for rent, bills, food etc of £650 per month, reducing to £250 or $450 per month in Phoenix.
Most months this was adequate but remember that letting agencies require a deposit (refundable).
Training was exceptionally good, both at the Ground School and Flying stages (Phoenix). MCC / JOT was probably the phase which prepared my son most for the job market, and by the time he had finished he was facing 3 interviews.

A good comment was to place the training costs as a second mortgage where possible, £75000 costing about £450 per month interest only.

I have commented before on the merits of OAA against other providers, so i will not say more here, than the best route is integrated.
The reason for this is that JAA regulators are now stipulating a maximum of two training establishments for the modular route, so as to provide oversight by the respective Aviation authorities and monitoring of standards.
When this comes into effect it will change the face of the modular route.

By the time a new entrant into OAA, FTE or Cabair completes his or her training in 2010 the market could have changed again, but there will be severe cut backs this winter, and the current pilot shortage worldwide could become a surplus while the market absorbs the current cost increases.

As for the self sponsored type rating route this I am afraid to say is here to stay and good advice is to consider that as part of your budget.
If you dont need it Big Plus, but if you do it will not come as a shock.

Final thought is that the total cost including everything (no TR) will be in the region of £90000 by the end of 2010.
The £ to € rate and £ to US$ will change probably to the lowering in the value of £ Sterling.

Dont put off your dream. Be prepared for the hardest 17 months of your life but its only your motivation and family support that will get you through.

[MIKECR]

I wonder where the money will come from. Perhpaps only the rich kids will be going integrated in the years to come