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Ways to get there...

Old 18th Jun 2008, 18:55
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Question Ways to get there...

OK, you'll probably think this is just another post on an already over-asked question - so hopefully after reading this, you will see that I have researched and read a lot before posting.

My aim is to become a commercial airline pilot. I come from an average financial background, but I don't think that should stand in the way. I have just about finished my first year at college, doing AS-Levels: Further Mathematics, Physics, Economics, Electronics.

I have drawn up three ways of 'getting to the top':

1. Join the RAF. Then, after 14 years (minimum service), apply for airlines.

2. Complete A-Levels, then do modular training towards an fATPL while keeping my part-time job to pay for it. Possibly take out a loan to assist, depending on the actual costs. Then, apply for airlines.

3. Complete A-Levels, then do a university degree. Do modular training (either during degree or afterwards). Then, apply for airlines.

By the way, integrated training is not an option since I'd never be able to afford it.

My opinion on these:

1. I have ruled out joining the royal air force for many reasons.

2. I think it is unwise to choose not to have a degree, as a fall back and also airlines would probably appreciate someone with a degree than someone without one (?)

3. I am convinced this is the right path for me. So, the question has become: what degree to take?

I have looked into the various Aviation-related w/pilot studies degrees. The problem is, a few teachers have given me strong advice that these are 'mickey mouse degrees' (?) No offence intended to anyone, but is this true? Hopefully you know what I mean.

So, I could just do a standard degree (like Maths). Either way, I would have to fit training in somehow. Now is it possible to do modular training whilst doing a uni course? Or would I have to wait and then begin training afterwards.

I have also come across CTC Wings - where if you are selected, they pay for your training and expect you to pay back over time. Are there any other schemes like this? And what is the flexibility - again, would I have to do the training after the degree? This would mean I could only begin my application towards the final year of my uni course (?)

I appreciate this is a fairly long post, so thank you for taking the time to read it. I would like as many comments/suggestions as I can get...so fire away!

Regards
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Old 18th Jun 2008, 19:30
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Hi Rikesh.

From your 3 options, personally I would choose number 3!

Having a degree to 'fall back on' is a very wise move in the current climate. As for the choice of what subject, think very carefully! I feel as though I was pressured into choosing the course I took from several directions. Had I been strong enough at the time to resist, I believe I would have chosen differently. Regardless, I did not enjoy my time, which was reflected in my grades and ultimatley concluded in me cutting my studies short to persue other avenues. A few years later I am about to start an integrated course with nothing but experience in an industry I hate behind me - Such is my desire and will power to succeed now I am doing something that I want to do!
The point I am trying to make with the above waffel, is that it may be a 'micky mouse course' (Ive heard that phrase a lot!) but if it is a field you are pasionate about and have an interest in - it doesnt matter! The only disadvantge is that you are setting yourself into a niche career, rather than a Maths grad, or Mechanical Engineer grad who can then work in any one of a number of fields.
Chose the course YOU want to do. Its your time spent studying and its your life to live!

As far as I am aware, CTC are pretty unique with their 'Wings' scheme, and just to be clear, you dont pay back the training costs. Your employing airline will do that - but you will be 'bonded' to them for several years at a lower salary (they keep that bit quiet). Despite that, it is a very lucrative deal, and as such, attracts a lot of interest - ie, they can afford to only pick the cream of the crop!

I hope to have answered some of your questions.
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Old 18th Jun 2008, 20:22
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I'd go number 3 also.

A degree means you have backup in case something goes wrong. I agree with JB about degrees - do one you enjoy! Otherwise, you'll lose interest and it will show in your marks. I don't think there is much of an advantage from an aviation employment perspective with regards to which degree you do although an aviation one may potentially 'better prepare' you for the later stages of your training.

Whilst at university, you could join the RAF Air Squadron where you'll gain flying experience there (not sure if you can fully complete your PPL with them but I'm sure someone more 'in the know' will confirm this).

Either way, your first 2 years at university are fairly easy going so you could afford (time wise) to get a part time job and pay for PPL lessons as you go (1-2 per month seems reasonable). However, you'll have to be good at money management otherwise you'll have no chance [insert beer smilie ]

There is no way you'll be able to get any further than PPL at Uni - the final year is a challenge and you'll want to work as hard as possible to get a good classification (otherwise there's no point in going in the first place).

After this, get a graduate job and continue to fund your PPL. Then, if you're enjoying it and know it's for you, get a class 1 medical and begin to study for the ATPLs / hour build.

Food for thought - a degree isn't the be all and end all. You could simply get a job at the bottom (99% graduates start here anyway) and work you're way up. There are loads of people here who've done this.

Good luck - p.s. I know everyone says it, but you'll have the time of your life at uni.

Last edited by Shiver me timbers!; 18th Jun 2008 at 20:38.
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Old 18th Jun 2008, 20:38
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dont bother about the RAF flying or anything like that if you intend to go commercial as ive been told that the hours dont count to your civilian future.

option 3 is the best and the way i did it.

finish a degree but if you find somthing other that avaiation that your intrested in go for that as otherwise your options are restricted. if i were you i would not bother about flying until you finish university. only reason is if your only doing one of two lessons a month you are likely to take more hours to finish as you get rusty between lessons.

finish your ppl then go back into university for ATPLs. they are hard but you should be able to work weekends during the whole thing (including university and ppl). ive been working throughout my studying and had no problems other than never having time to myself! you may also want to be doing some hours during the weekends as well to stay current.

once your done with your ATPLs finish your hours building. ofcourse there is no problem working through that.

when it comes to the CPL, ME, IR its best to make sure you have enough money in the bank to compleate them one at a time without taking a break as otherwise again you will prob need more hours.
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Old 18th Jun 2008, 21:32
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Nashers - valid suggestion about waiting until after uni (that's what I've done although I only properly caught the bug during my second year).

However, you know what its like when you have the urge to get going. Rikesh, if you do chose to have the odd lesson here and there and it does result it taking more hours to complete the PPL than the average, I wouldn't worry as it all counts in the hour building stage anyway.
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Old 18th Jun 2008, 22:43
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I think if someone wants to be a pilot, doing a degree is lunacy...you do not need a degree to be a pilot. Leeds Uni and other various organisations charges fee's to do a degree but it means little when it comes down to it.

What you should focus on IMO is the PPL, Night, ATPL Exams, CPL/MEP and IR exams and go that way rather than a degree. Those exams will take up just as much of your time as your uni exams and you will not get much if any credit for your uni degree.

A degree (depending on the subject) will however will open other doors if you decide piloting is not for you.

P.S. for what it's worth
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Old 19th Jun 2008, 00:02
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I done option 3 also...

For those that believe that a degree isn't required to become a pilot, you are correct, but it's not the purpose of the degree. The degree is used for two things, first of all help you stand out from the crowd and second of all help you achieve a backup plan if the industry collapses or if you have a medical/personal/financial problem.

I believe the Airline degrees are a complete waste of time and effort, the main purpose of the degree is a back up so why would you do a degree in the exact same area?

I done a degree in Law, don't regret it.
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Old 19th Jun 2008, 19:22
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Firstly, thanks for all your replies.

jb2_86_uk I agree with your advice to choose a course which I would enjoy. Of course, the thing I would enjoy the most would be to learn to fly (hence a degree with pilot studies), but preduk has confirmed my concerns about the actual usefulness of the course. I am considering a degree in maths or similar area (yes I'm a geek I enjoy maths).

XL319 I would have thought, with the competitiveness of the aviation industry today, that having a degree would benefit you over someone who doesn't? True, most airlines do not state a degree as necessary - but it is not a question of getting the bare minimum (which for certain airlines would be 5 C grades at GCSE along with the ATPL). Am I right?

David UK So just to make sure: regardless of uni course, I would not really have time to do a few hours a week towards PPL and afterwards CPL etc? Putting in a few hours a month is something I would never do.

Nashers I do not plan on going anywhere near the RAF. But I have doubts as to whether they would allow me to join a squadron and train for PPL with absolutely no intention to fly for the RAF. David UK?

Another question I have is this: with the current A-Levels I am studying, and if I were to take a maths degree also..would this make my educational qualifications seem very one-sided? I.e. almost all the higher qualifications I would have are based upon maths. It is not very balanced.

Would this be looked upon unfavourably by the airline industry - or generally in any industry?

Once again, I appreciate your replies.
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Old 19th Jun 2008, 19:46
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I dont know much about how airlines would view specific degrees (if they would view different ones diferently at all) - I am very much a fresh-out-of-the-box newbie, but...

If you are wanting to do a serious degree (ie, non micky mouse) how about something like Aeronautical Engineering? It will include lots of aviation stuff to keep you interested, is an engineering based degree (obviously a wide genre and a very respectable degree) and it will make the most of your maths and physics studies. I have seen in some prospectusus/prospectus'/ prospectii (???) one of their projects was to design a plane! cool!

I wouldnt worry about your studies all being maths based! - its quite an important subject - all your displaying (assuming good grades ) is that you have mastered it!

Good luck with whatever you do anyway!
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Old 19th Jun 2008, 19:51
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rikesh,

I doubt anyone in the airline industry will look into your non flying qualifications in such detail as to say that you're too one sided. You've found something that you're good at and you're making the most of it by getting the highest possible qualification with that strength. No one can fault you for that.

With regards to XL319's comment's, what he's saying is that having a degree won't help to get a flying job. There are much more important things to airlines than your education. Having exemplary results throughout your education doesn't mean you'll be a suitable pilot for example. What a degree will help you with however is giving you a decent fall back should you lose your medical (it happens), or lose your job when the industry goes through a downturn (aviation suffers very badly in economic downturns). It may also give you valubale life experience, though it is argued that the same life experience could be found through working for 3 or 4 years full-time.

If you did a good degree (like maths) and then got a job with that degree, you could fund your training with your spare earnings. Having done all that no airline could fault your motivation or dismiss you as not yet mature enough.

Another thing to consider is, if you are an academic, you should capitalise on that and get as high a qualification as you can. Not everyone is gifted with academic ability, so if you are I reckon you should embrace it; it can do no harm.
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Old 20th Jun 2008, 18:15
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jb2_86_uk I am considering this. Hopefully the uni open days will give me a bit more guidance, but right now its between mathematics and an engineering-based course.

BerksFlyer I was reading the airline survey by GAPAN (http://www.gapan.org/careers/survey.htm) and it does seem to back up what you have said - education only ranked 7 out of 10 most important things considered by an airline when recruiting. However, I want to achieve as high educational qualifications as I can because, as you said, I can. It will only benefit me.

Could someone please clarify, would I be able to complete at least a PPL or beyond during my university studies? Or is this a bad idea and I'd be better off waiting until after the course?
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Old 20th Jun 2008, 18:59
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Seeing as you do ATPL theory after PPL, no you wouldn't be able to get any further than PPL at university. It would be far too much work and if you started studying ATPL theory during your degree, your marks for both would suffer. Just concentrate on getting a PPL (it's probably better to do it before going to university) then while doing your degree build hours. You need to build 150 hours to do a CPL, so you may aswell make the most of your 3 years at university flying-wise and fly on weekends and spare days. That ensures that upon graduating, you can pretty much go straight onto the CPL without having to do loads of hours building.

Try the university air squadron. If you don't want to join the RAF, they don't have to know that. If you get a PPL before going to university, they will know you're serious about flying and you'll be ahead of the rest of the people wanting in. It should give you an advantage getting in and the UAS could save you a hell of a lot of hours because the free hours will count towards the 150 needed.
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Old 22nd Jun 2008, 10:31
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OK. About getting a PPL before university, I live in Leicester so the closest place to fly is Leicestershire Aeroclub. If I were to choose this school (not saying that I will because it needs a lot of thought, of course) - but let's say I did and completed a PPL there.

Then I go on to university and fly a few hours (hopefully in the UAS) whenever I can. After completing a degree, I choose a flight school to do the remaining hour-building and a CPL etc, in modular form. Whilst in a job to pay for training.

When I am eventually awarded an ATPL, I start applying to the airlines. The question is: with my licences having been done at various places throughout the UK, would this show any inconsistency from the airlines' point of view? I've always thought it would be better to do all training at one school. I hope this is not the case?
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Old 22nd Jun 2008, 14:08
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It's best to do all your advanced training at one school. So that means CPL ME IR. It won't matter one jot where you did your PPL, because that's not even a professional licence. ATPL theory, again it doesn't matter because some decent places that do it don't even do flying (like Bristol Ground School).
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Old 22nd Jun 2008, 15:00
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Rikesh - in your first 2 years you would have time to do a couple of hours flying per week definitely. The only problem with this is funding it - 2 hours per week @ £130 = £260 per week. If you already have the money then go for it ... but you won't have time to work in order to save that amount.

I'm not really in a position to be offering career advice with regards to maths a-levels and degrees. However, as a guess I'd say that a maths degree would open lots of avenues down the road and wouldn't leave you unbalanced. Then again, if I were you I'd go and speak to a careers adviser (about maths - they tend not to know too much about aviation careers). There should be one at your school/college.
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Old 22nd Jun 2008, 15:49
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rikesh

yes as others have said you should be able to do you ppl during your first year of university and do some hours building during your whole course.

saying that however there are a few other points you need to remember. if you do intend to do some hours building during your university, you will have a maximum of 105 hours (after you finish your ppl) to do. now if you dont mind going over 150 hours before you start your CPL then there is no problem, but if your budget does not allow, you are very likley to finish your hours building before your degree, THEN go into the ATPLs. it will take you 2 years to compleate your hours building if you only do 1 hour a week so you will have about a year of no flying plus the time you to your ATPLs.


you will have a long time from when you last flew to when you start your cpl so would be very rusty. also if you can only fly 1 hour a week or so your flying would be limited to your local area. i have been told airlines like to see cross countrys in your log book.

the best advise i could give you is do it the way i did as it worked great for me. finish university, do a ppl then go into your ATPL theory. while there you can do a couple of hours a weekend. you will finish your ATPLs with about 50-60 more hours to do so you can do nice long flights to pleanty of great airfields around the country. as soon as you finish your hours building start you CPL and the rest.

by doing it this way and doing alot of hours together closer to when you passed your ppl your less likely to pick up bad habbits and remember the way you were shown by the instructor. also it will help you with your cpl as you would be very current so no rusty bits.
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Old 22nd Jun 2008, 16:42
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I'll second Nashers advise above - the most realistic situation (if you go to Uni) is to complete your PPL afterwards along with the ATPLs & hour building etc...again, this is unless you have a guarantee of £5-7k to complete the PPL whilst at Uni.

There is no rush to complete training. Don't get bogged down reading too many stories about 18/19 year olds flying with airlines - this is very rare.

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Old 22nd Jun 2008, 17:16
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Getting a degree is never a mistake as long as it is a decent course, from a decent establishment, and you achieve a decent result. Many of my friends who went straight into flying, seriously regret not going to university first. You have your whole life to be a pilot; the degree will simply mean you start three or four years later, and yet it will give you something to fall back on if you lose your medical or whatever.

I do not recommend doing anything aviation related, unless that is the kind of job that you would like to do if you end up without a career as a commercial pilot.

As for worrying about being too specialised in one subject - that is the whole idea of a degree. Personally, I did close to six years of Physics. I do not use those qualifications at all now, and I have probably forgotten more than I knew in the first place. However, I would not miss out any of my university time even if I had the chance to go back and make my decisions all over again with the advantage of hindsight.
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Old 22nd Jun 2008, 22:49
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I did a degree in Law but this means absolutley nothing with regards to flying! It does however open many doors if flying caves in etc etc!!!

I feel that a flying related degree would hinder any progres in other field if the aviation world went down.
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Old 23rd Jun 2008, 06:35
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2. do modular training towards an fATPL while keeping my part-time job to pay for it
Definately take this route, a part-time job that can fund all this flight training should not be packed in. Keep this part-time job and get your ATPL. Even getting graduate employment would not pay as much as this.
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