No Touch & Gos allowed
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The barrel roll out in Phoenix isn't new. When I was going through one person;
1. Barrel rolled the PA28
2. Did solo touch and goes out on desert roads
3. Exceeded (regularly) Vne.
4. When solo, got into the back seats of the aircraft and took a picture of the aircraft flying without a pilot.
5. Without any related training, did close formation flying with his mates.
1. Barrel rolled the PA28
2. Did solo touch and goes out on desert roads
3. Exceeded (regularly) Vne.
4. When solo, got into the back seats of the aircraft and took a picture of the aircraft flying without a pilot.
5. Without any related training, did close formation flying with his mates.
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Originally Posted by sqwkvfr
The clock starts when cleared for takeoff and stops at the end of lesson. It is not to be stopped while on the ground.
I would suggest that before you comment you also find out a bit more about aviation. Why do you expect a real 737 pilot to know the capabilities of a GTX330 txponder? I first saw one this year when we had them installed, and until then I would never have connected a transponder to a timing function, so your comment would have confused me too. Antonio sure as hell isn't going to have one in his jet!
I think you should chill out and find some facts before you go making personal comments about others. You don't know enough to make them correctly, let alone the fact that you should be slower to make them at all.
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WW / L a B
This nonsense about the ADF & Txpdr has now surpassed the point of sensible discussion; L a B are you honestly a
OAT are not trying to fleece anyone; you don't get any less hours for your money; fuel savings would be marginal when you consider the somewhat benevolent logging system used (max 15min taxy for the purpose of training) i.e. how much fuel is consumed whilst early students run through checklists, learn how to taxy, pre-takeoff checks etc over 150hrs. This would easily negate any savings made by reduced fuel consumption over the relatively few solo full-stop/taxy back lessons during a typical course.
To my knowledge, no other FTO works like this i.e in the students favour.
The other advantage of full-stops vs touch & go's is that rather than learning how to touch wheels at 65kts & go (relatively little time spent on runway & little chance of deviation) you actually learn the correct landing process of approach, roundout, flare, touchdown, deceleration, rollout & taxyoff (just like proper 737 pilots
) which requires greater skill & discipline - in my humble opinion.
The reason for the adoption of this practice is safety, pure & simple.
Happy, stable approaches...& landings.
This nonsense about the ADF & Txpdr has now surpassed the point of sensible discussion; L a B are you honestly a
real 737 pilot?
To my knowledge, no other FTO works like this i.e in the students favour.
The other advantage of full-stops vs touch & go's is that rather than learning how to touch wheels at 65kts & go (relatively little time spent on runway & little chance of deviation) you actually learn the correct landing process of approach, roundout, flare, touchdown, deceleration, rollout & taxyoff (just like proper 737 pilots
) which requires greater skill & discipline - in my humble opinion. The reason for the adoption of this practice is safety, pure & simple.
Happy, stable approaches...& landings.
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Tootles
No. Neither have I ever claimed to be. Look in my profile - it says that I am a GA pilot.
My point is that WingoWango only has to see something he disagrees with, and he goes off on one, making personal comments and attacking the other poster, even if the actual problem is that his own comments need clarification or his own assumptions are wrong. I understand that Antonio is a 737 pilot, and WingoWango was doubting this due to his lack of knowledge of instruments found on the light pistons I do fly. I actually knew what WingoWango meant, although I thought at the time he had not expressed it clearly.
The student will not get any fewer hours logged for the money. That is clear, and I have always acknowledged that. It is also not relevant to the points I have been making. The student will get less flying experience during that time, so might well have to buy more hours. Either way the school is paying less money while receiving the same money from the student.
Fuel savings are considerable. I don't know about the school in question, but fuel costs on a piston can be a very high proportion of direct operating costs, probably around 30%. Profit is a very small proportion of the charged price at most schools. Taxi fuel flows are a small fraction of those in the circuit (where full mixture would be used, and maximum power for a high proportion of the flight), probably around 20 or 30%. The saving in fuel alone, ignoring unplanned maintenance (planned maintenance costs would not be reduced of course) would have a major impact on the profitability of circuit trips.
Oh, and some FTOs only charge 10 minutes' taxi time, so the charges are not especially benevolent.
You are quite clearly in disagreement with not only me and all those who have expressed an opinion here, but the management of the school in question and even yourself!
If a full-stop landing required more skill, then it would not be used as a safer alternative which the school claims, and which you support. I think a touch and go is more difficult, however I believe that the skill and control needed is an essential pre-solo requirement, and I was taught such in my FI course, so would not send a student solo unless I would be happy for that student to perform touch and go circuits on a suitably long runway (2500 m being more than twice what I would define as suitable!).
No. Neither have I ever claimed to be. Look in my profile - it says that I am a GA pilot.
My point is that WingoWango only has to see something he disagrees with, and he goes off on one, making personal comments and attacking the other poster, even if the actual problem is that his own comments need clarification or his own assumptions are wrong. I understand that Antonio is a 737 pilot, and WingoWango was doubting this due to his lack of knowledge of instruments found on the light pistons I do fly. I actually knew what WingoWango meant, although I thought at the time he had not expressed it clearly.
The student will not get any fewer hours logged for the money. That is clear, and I have always acknowledged that. It is also not relevant to the points I have been making. The student will get less flying experience during that time, so might well have to buy more hours. Either way the school is paying less money while receiving the same money from the student.
Fuel savings are considerable. I don't know about the school in question, but fuel costs on a piston can be a very high proportion of direct operating costs, probably around 30%. Profit is a very small proportion of the charged price at most schools. Taxi fuel flows are a small fraction of those in the circuit (where full mixture would be used, and maximum power for a high proportion of the flight), probably around 20 or 30%. The saving in fuel alone, ignoring unplanned maintenance (planned maintenance costs would not be reduced of course) would have a major impact on the profitability of circuit trips.
Oh, and some FTOs only charge 10 minutes' taxi time, so the charges are not especially benevolent.
You are quite clearly in disagreement with not only me and all those who have expressed an opinion here, but the management of the school in question and even yourself!
If a full-stop landing required more skill, then it would not be used as a safer alternative which the school claims, and which you support. I think a touch and go is more difficult, however I believe that the skill and control needed is an essential pre-solo requirement, and I was taught such in my FI course, so would not send a student solo unless I would be happy for that student to perform touch and go circuits on a suitably long runway (2500 m being more than twice what I would define as suitable!).
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Wingo
Don't worry, I have no personal issues with you. I have answered some of the personal issues you seem to have with me, but I don't take them to heart. That's why I didn't think the comprehensible parts of your last post were worth replying to.
Don't worry, I have no personal issues with you. I have answered some of the personal issues you seem to have with me, but I don't take them to heart. That's why I didn't think the comprehensible parts of your last post were worth replying to.
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Without wishing to cause a riot, Tootles, when you do your first 6 Take off and Landings in a 737, or for that matter any jet (unless you can get Zero Flight Time, but I digress) on your first type rating, you actually do Touch and Go's.
For the most part, you would normally have two crew when you are flying the Line, the FO normally gets to hit the TOGA (Take Off, Go Around) Buttons on the Thrust Levers after standing them up, then lets go to hold the Control Column, the Capt is in charge of them on the T/O run. On landing you do your own Thrust and then Reverse, Reverse Idle normally for me anyway, then at 60Kts the Capt will call 'I have control' and you relinquish control to him for the taxi in.
Hope that helps
Tony
For the most part, you would normally have two crew when you are flying the Line, the FO normally gets to hit the TOGA (Take Off, Go Around) Buttons on the Thrust Levers after standing them up, then lets go to hold the Control Column, the Capt is in charge of them on the T/O run. On landing you do your own Thrust and then Reverse, Reverse Idle normally for me anyway, then at 60Kts the Capt will call 'I have control' and you relinquish control to him for the taxi in.
Hope that helps
Tony
