shared ownership for hours building?
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shared ownership for hours building?
hi guys, just a thought that has popped into my head whilst spending many hours trawling this forum for advice!
would it be economical for a small group of newbie modular / self improver student-pilots to set up a shared ownership on, say, a c172 or similar? by my reckoning the cost of hours building here or abroad is horrendous, so times that by 6... would it be enough to justify the effort? obvious benefit being, ownership of a light aircraft at the end of it all..
im just evaluating my options on training route at the moment.. either kingston uni / cabair modular [ish] or full modular... would love to go integrated, but perhaps its a bit out of my league for cost!!
all thoughts and ideas welcomed!!
would it be economical for a small group of newbie modular / self improver student-pilots to set up a shared ownership on, say, a c172 or similar? by my reckoning the cost of hours building here or abroad is horrendous, so times that by 6... would it be enough to justify the effort? obvious benefit being, ownership of a light aircraft at the end of it all..
im just evaluating my options on training route at the moment.. either kingston uni / cabair modular [ish] or full modular... would love to go integrated, but perhaps its a bit out of my league for cost!!
all thoughts and ideas welcomed!!
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It would be if you could find 6 newbie/wanabees based close to a designated airfield. Thats a long shot but theres no harm in asking and advertising. Plus to make it cost effective you'll have to be buying an old aircraft and that puts people off instantly not just because of the chances of a catastrophic failiure but just the overall maintenance costs that an older aircraft may incur. Its a nice idea that i and probably many others have toyed with but many have stayed clear of .
Buying a share of a reputable aircraft is a different matter completely though
Buying a share of a reputable aircraft is a different matter completely though
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I'm a little confused here. 
Wouldn't it be easier for you to just join a share that has already been set up? I have seen many adverts in the flying magazines and even ebay.
My question *trying to read between the lines* would be, If we had 4 pilots all with a PPL trying to log hours toward a CPL/FI/IR or whatever and they all flew together on every flight would they all get the hours logged? and if so do I assume only one of them will get P1 time?
I'd certainly see the benifits if this was possible. Share the cost of fuel between the 4 of you and rotate P1 time. Fly every weekend for 4 to 8 hrs and you'd soon have a good time on your log book to go ahead with the CPL etc.
Slap me if I'm wrong
Wouldn't it be easier for you to just join a share that has already been set up? I have seen many adverts in the flying magazines and even ebay.
My question *trying to read between the lines* would be, If we had 4 pilots all with a PPL trying to log hours toward a CPL/FI/IR or whatever and they all flew together on every flight would they all get the hours logged? and if so do I assume only one of them will get P1 time?
I'd certainly see the benifits if this was possible. Share the cost of fuel between the 4 of you and rotate P1 time. Fly every weekend for 4 to 8 hrs and you'd soon have a good time on your log book to go ahead with the CPL etc.
Slap me if I'm wrong
I think it would be better just to go to a flight school that offers an hour building module.
I did my hour building (and chose to do the rest of my training) at Egnatia Aviation and they get a number of hour builders there, the main thing that attracts them is the weather and the aircraft.
I mean, why go through all the hassle of co-owning a c172 in the UK when you can go to Greece and fly new DA40's in all year round excellent weather?
I did my hour building (and chose to do the rest of my training) at Egnatia Aviation and they get a number of hour builders there, the main thing that attracts them is the weather and the aircraft.
I mean, why go through all the hassle of co-owning a c172 in the UK when you can go to Greece and fly new DA40's in all year round excellent weather?
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hi all, thanks for the positive responses so far.
in answer to some of the points raised, my thoughts were that setting up a new group, would just be beneficial to a group of like minded flyers. times of flight etc would work on a similar basis to other groups, however, the idea of co piloting is a good one, to further save on cost! joining an established group would also be an option that makes sense. just me being me, i tend to like my finger on the pulse!
my original thinking behind this,was that, after forking out x amount for relatively high rental costs over 2 years between 6 people, it would be entirely possible, that the savings made could equal the value of the aircraft. hence leaving the group with an asset that could be sold at the end of training if desired, to fund further, more advanced licences etc.
obviously, battling with the lovely conditions here in the uk has a positive and a negative side, positive being you are flying in far more challenging conditions and quite likely more chance of encountering advanced airspace than [dont get me wrong] an idyllic setting like greece or florida. i do see that the benefit of guaranteed airtime etc is a definite plus, but perhaps, more for people under tight time constraints? couple this with the savings made in airfare and foreign accom etc, which will all add up to a pretty penny at the end of a 2 month hours building tour.
weather is a massive issue in hours building and the early stages of flight, however, my timeline for training is at least 2 years, if not, slightly more. hence, my search to decrease cost at every reasonable avenue, whilst maintaining a solid, current, skills set.
i have put together a sample cost analysis, which im sure will be inaccurate, so correct at will! it is merely meant as a representation to check viability. i wrote it conservatively, but not taking into account a major failure in the aircraft. which i would expect to come in at app 15k for an engine or similar.
purchase cost 20-40k
parking 1200 pa
insurance 2000 pa
annual checks 2000
radio license 20
50 hr checks @ 500 each
maintenance costs 1500
fuel 30 ph
oil 2 ph
going on this, i would expect a standing cost pa to be approx 6500.
the group would contribute equally to buy in, with a 120 per month contribution to costs [this would cover all base costs up to ~6x 50 hr checks]. the aircraft would be charged to the group at 30 ph dry.
by my reckoning, this would give an average cost spread over a yr in which one member flew 200 hours:
membership 1440
hourly rent 6000
fuel/oil 6400
hourly rate per member: 69ph wet + landings
obviously, this is barring a major failure, but, the contingency fund would come from the hourly rate. which i would estimate in one yr to be [guesstimate!!] 36k [200hrs*30=6000*6 pax = 36k pa]
ideally this would be operating a complex single. im sure there are flaws in my idea, but i only started to research it today!!
all ideas, thoughts and views gratefully taken...its all theoretical at this stage!!
b
p.s. here is the link for egnatia's hour building package http://www.egnatia-aviation.com/hourbuild.htm [6700 gbp for 28 days shared accom and 100 hrs flight on diamond da40's] not bad!!
in answer to some of the points raised, my thoughts were that setting up a new group, would just be beneficial to a group of like minded flyers. times of flight etc would work on a similar basis to other groups, however, the idea of co piloting is a good one, to further save on cost! joining an established group would also be an option that makes sense. just me being me, i tend to like my finger on the pulse!
my original thinking behind this,was that, after forking out x amount for relatively high rental costs over 2 years between 6 people, it would be entirely possible, that the savings made could equal the value of the aircraft. hence leaving the group with an asset that could be sold at the end of training if desired, to fund further, more advanced licences etc.
obviously, battling with the lovely conditions here in the uk has a positive and a negative side, positive being you are flying in far more challenging conditions and quite likely more chance of encountering advanced airspace than [dont get me wrong] an idyllic setting like greece or florida. i do see that the benefit of guaranteed airtime etc is a definite plus, but perhaps, more for people under tight time constraints? couple this with the savings made in airfare and foreign accom etc, which will all add up to a pretty penny at the end of a 2 month hours building tour.
weather is a massive issue in hours building and the early stages of flight, however, my timeline for training is at least 2 years, if not, slightly more. hence, my search to decrease cost at every reasonable avenue, whilst maintaining a solid, current, skills set.
i have put together a sample cost analysis, which im sure will be inaccurate, so correct at will! it is merely meant as a representation to check viability. i wrote it conservatively, but not taking into account a major failure in the aircraft. which i would expect to come in at app 15k for an engine or similar.
purchase cost 20-40k
parking 1200 pa
insurance 2000 pa
annual checks 2000
radio license 20
50 hr checks @ 500 each
maintenance costs 1500
fuel 30 ph
oil 2 ph
going on this, i would expect a standing cost pa to be approx 6500.
the group would contribute equally to buy in, with a 120 per month contribution to costs [this would cover all base costs up to ~6x 50 hr checks]. the aircraft would be charged to the group at 30 ph dry.
by my reckoning, this would give an average cost spread over a yr in which one member flew 200 hours:
membership 1440
hourly rent 6000
fuel/oil 6400
hourly rate per member: 69ph wet + landings
obviously, this is barring a major failure, but, the contingency fund would come from the hourly rate. which i would estimate in one yr to be [guesstimate!!] 36k [200hrs*30=6000*6 pax = 36k pa]
ideally this would be operating a complex single. im sure there are flaws in my idea, but i only started to research it today!!
all ideas, thoughts and views gratefully taken...its all theoretical at this stage!!
b
p.s. here is the link for egnatia's hour building package http://www.egnatia-aviation.com/hourbuild.htm [6700 gbp for 28 days shared accom and 100 hrs flight on diamond da40's] not bad!!
Last edited by biggles0449; 1st Sep 2007 at 22:42. Reason: to add weblink for egnatia hour building package
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Thanks for the Egnatia link. €132/hr for a 40Tdi is not entirely bad. Might give them a ring next time I'm in the area. Wonder if they will have any issues with me flying their planes to Bulgaria (their runways are in better condition than their roads, though)
As for the group share thing... you might want to wander over to the Private Aviation section, where this is discussed regularly.
Personally, I do most of my flying in Southern France and Northern Spain, where the cost of hiring is about the same as you quote, except without the headaches. I pay €117 (£79) per hour wet on a 172XP, and €95 (£64) on a PA18. In both cases no landing fees at the local aerodrome, and away landings are about €10 in Spain and €5 in France (except night landings)
When I fly with other pilots, whoever logs the hours pays for the plane. Usually we fly one sector each, although often the pilot not flying is the busiest, handling the radio and doing the nav, etc.
So in summary, another option you could consider is finding a decent place to hire from somewhere in the continent which is reachable by lo-co, pop over and do your hour building during the weekends. Good for the exposure to different airspaces too.
Anyway, just some random thoughts
As for the group share thing... you might want to wander over to the Private Aviation section, where this is discussed regularly.
Personally, I do most of my flying in Southern France and Northern Spain, where the cost of hiring is about the same as you quote, except without the headaches. I pay €117 (£79) per hour wet on a 172XP, and €95 (£64) on a PA18. In both cases no landing fees at the local aerodrome, and away landings are about €10 in Spain and €5 in France (except night landings)
When I fly with other pilots, whoever logs the hours pays for the plane. Usually we fly one sector each, although often the pilot not flying is the busiest, handling the radio and doing the nav, etc.
So in summary, another option you could consider is finding a decent place to hire from somewhere in the continent which is reachable by lo-co, pop over and do your hour building during the weekends. Good for the exposure to different airspaces too.
Anyway, just some random thoughts
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Biggles0449,
It is a lot easier to just buy a share in a group plane at your local airfield.
A well run group will have plenty of experienced pilots to fly with and learn from.
You can hour build for £50-£80 per hour wet.
It is a lot easier to just buy a share in a group plane at your local airfield.
A well run group will have plenty of experienced pilots to fly with and learn from.
You can hour build for £50-£80 per hour wet.
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thanks guys, like the idea of france/spain for hour builiding..madrid from bournemouth is always cheap! just been reading about aerofan / aerodynamics in spain, they both seem well respected. as i said before, this was just a theoretical thing, to learn a bit more about the issues/costs of ownership; so all your ideas and advice are greatly appreciated!
im still going to be looking into this a bit more, maybe leaning towards an existing group or continental flying. i posted this topic in 'questions' but didnt get any response..
thanks again, and happy flying!
im still going to be looking into this a bit more, maybe leaning towards an existing group or continental flying. i posted this topic in 'questions' but didnt get any response..
thanks again, and happy flying!
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biggles0449
First check your PM's !
Looking at the numbers you have put up they all look good in theory the insurance is not too far from the truth as are the parking fees, but the maintenance costs are so far adrift that it is clear that you have not understood the way maintenance is priced.
The numbers that you quote are fro the basic check without snaggs fixed and the AD's compleated and it is very rare for an aircraft to do 50 hours without having a snagg or two, for example if a tyre is worn to limmits on a 50 hour check this will cost you about £60 for the tyre and about one hours labour (say £45) to fix so that is your plan 10%+ over buget for a tyre worn just wait till they find a cylinder that needs changing. you might get within 20% of these numbers with a lucky buy of a C150 but the idea that you could run a complex aircraft for these numbers is so far off the mark that it reads like alice in wonderland.
The price for buying the aircraft is interesting to say the least , yes you can buy aircraft for that sort of money but and this is the very big but you will get a dog with old radios, a high time engine, faded paint and the inside will smell as if some sort of pond life is living in the carpets!
In short the whole plot will be very expensive to run in the short term because people who are about to sell an aircraft skimp on the maintenance because they won't see a return on it.
If you want to know any more then PM or call me, I am in the business of leaseing quality aircraft that you would feel safe to fly, This comes at a price but is a very economical way to build hours without all the risks of joint ownership.
Looking at the numbers you have put up they all look good in theory the insurance is not too far from the truth as are the parking fees, but the maintenance costs are so far adrift that it is clear that you have not understood the way maintenance is priced.
The numbers that you quote are fro the basic check without snaggs fixed and the AD's compleated and it is very rare for an aircraft to do 50 hours without having a snagg or two, for example if a tyre is worn to limmits on a 50 hour check this will cost you about £60 for the tyre and about one hours labour (say £45) to fix so that is your plan 10%+ over buget for a tyre worn just wait till they find a cylinder that needs changing. you might get within 20% of these numbers with a lucky buy of a C150 but the idea that you could run a complex aircraft for these numbers is so far off the mark that it reads like alice in wonderland.
The price for buying the aircraft is interesting to say the least , yes you can buy aircraft for that sort of money but and this is the very big but you will get a dog with old radios, a high time engine, faded paint and the inside will smell as if some sort of pond life is living in the carpets!
In short the whole plot will be very expensive to run in the short term because people who are about to sell an aircraft skimp on the maintenance because they won't see a return on it.
If you want to know any more then PM or call me, I am in the business of leaseing quality aircraft that you would feel safe to fly, This comes at a price but is a very economical way to build hours without all the risks of joint ownership.
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And before some smart ass tells me that he can get an aircraft tyre for £30. Yes I know that you can! but these tyres only last 50 hours, the £60 tyres last 150-200 hours, I think you get the picture!!
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thanks for your tips a and c! yeah i guessed the numbers would all be pie in the sky, but they came from my first day of researching the idea and the advice was ripped off the tinterweb!
got your pm, and it sure looks useful-cheers!
i think i will still be interested in some sort of group flying, but at the moment, more effort is going into getting my modular training sorted out!!
any other advice or ideas always welcome! [currently looking at spain and 'sarf offrika' for the early stages of flight training..]
got your pm, and it sure looks useful-cheers!
i think i will still be interested in some sort of group flying, but at the moment, more effort is going into getting my modular training sorted out!!
any other advice or ideas always welcome! [currently looking at spain and 'sarf offrika' for the early stages of flight training..]
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Why not fly TO Spain or France? I did, was a great experience, and cost me on average £70ph with hotels and landings overall. My Cessna 172R was £60ph WET to rent, from an english group. I just pay £110 a month.
Horgy
Horgy
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Mr Horgy
I am a little confused you say the aircraft cost £70/hour but that you have to pay £110 per month, are you a share holder that has equity in the aircraft or do you pay the monthly fee to use the aircraft and then an hourly rate?
And one last thing is the hourly rate "hobbs" or take off to touchdown ?
I do encourage peope who rent my aircraft to fly out of the UK so that they can take advantage of the fuel drawback and the cheaper landing/parking fees but feel that as the company is UK based I should quote the true price for flying in the UK. I would much rather me honest about the costs ( and how to reduce them) as this policy gets me quite a bit of return business as well as business from people who are unhappy with the less than transparent pricing structures of some other aircraft rental/leaseing companys.
And one last thing is the hourly rate "hobbs" or take off to touchdown ?
I do encourage peope who rent my aircraft to fly out of the UK so that they can take advantage of the fuel drawback and the cheaper landing/parking fees but feel that as the company is UK based I should quote the true price for flying in the UK. I would much rather me honest about the costs ( and how to reduce them) as this policy gets me quite a bit of return business as well as business from people who are unhappy with the less than transparent pricing structures of some other aircraft rental/leaseing companys.
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A & C,
I have a nonequity share in the aircraft. I pay a £110 maintenance payment per month, then £60 per Hobbs hour after that. I get it for around £70 once you include landing fees.
Horgy
I have a nonequity share in the aircraft. I pay a £110 maintenance payment per month, then £60 per Hobbs hour after that. I get it for around £70 once you include landing fees.
Horgy
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As a quick way of building hours, don't do it.
If you want to build experience, then maybe as syndication can lead to owning an interesting type not normally operated by a club.
BUT ownership does bring problems:
You have to get on with the co-owners so there are personalities to manage along with the aeroplane.
Not all the co-owners will be good pilots, nor will they know efficiently operating an aircraft - a pilot does not make a good operator. They may be lax about air law and maintenance.
Speaking of which expect your aeroplane to be offline for far longer than it might be for a school. You may also spend years waiting for a share in your area.
Savings are not that significant
However with the right aircraft and bunch of people, shared
ownership can be good. If you start your own group, then it is easier to get this dynamic right. Limiting the numbers in the group will also define availability, an advantage of hiring.
But for straight hours building, either i) negotiate a block rate ii) hunt around for clubs with monthly subs and a lower flying rate or iii) a well-run non-cap group.
I would personally prefer you fly anything you can get your hands on and build EXPERIENCE. A 150hr PPL having flown many types differs somewhat in capability to a hours builder with 100hrs on a 152.
If you want to build experience, then maybe as syndication can lead to owning an interesting type not normally operated by a club.
BUT ownership does bring problems:
You have to get on with the co-owners so there are personalities to manage along with the aeroplane.
Not all the co-owners will be good pilots, nor will they know efficiently operating an aircraft - a pilot does not make a good operator. They may be lax about air law and maintenance.
Speaking of which expect your aeroplane to be offline for far longer than it might be for a school. You may also spend years waiting for a share in your area.
Savings are not that significant
However with the right aircraft and bunch of people, shared
ownership can be good. If you start your own group, then it is easier to get this dynamic right. Limiting the numbers in the group will also define availability, an advantage of hiring.
But for straight hours building, either i) negotiate a block rate ii) hunt around for clubs with monthly subs and a lower flying rate or iii) a well-run non-cap group.
I would personally prefer you fly anything you can get your hands on and build EXPERIENCE. A 150hr PPL having flown many types differs somewhat in capability to a hours builder with 100hrs on a 152.
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Mr Horgy
Very interesting but lets see if I have this correct the monthly subscription is £110 and the flying rate £60 (lets forget the landing fees for the moment) that adds up to an hourly rate of £170 per hour if you fly one hour a month or £82 if you fly 5 hours a month.
If you could join the group fly 40 hours in one month and then get out it works out at a remarkably good £62.75 per hour but I would guess that is not the case!
My lease rate for a C152 is charged take off to touchdown and so would be about £ 35+VAT per hobbs hour. this of course is a dry rate so the hours builder can burn fuel at £1.27/Ltr if he stays in the UK or £0.74p/Ltr if they leave the UK.
A few trips to the Channel islands or France and the fact that you don't have the holel and airline tickets to pay for when you lease one of my aircraft makes it a very good deal when you look at all the costs involved in hour building and not just the headline rate.
If you could join the group fly 40 hours in one month and then get out it works out at a remarkably good £62.75 per hour but I would guess that is not the case!
My lease rate for a C152 is charged take off to touchdown and so would be about £ 35+VAT per hobbs hour. this of course is a dry rate so the hours builder can burn fuel at £1.27/Ltr if he stays in the UK or £0.74p/Ltr if they leave the UK.
A few trips to the Channel islands or France and the fact that you don't have the holel and airline tickets to pay for when you lease one of my aircraft makes it a very good deal when you look at all the costs involved in hour building and not just the headline rate.
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A & C
I flew 60 hours one month, so it worked out well for me. My point was there are lots of good deals to be had regarding hour building in the UK - people shouldn't be so quick to jump on the America bandwagon. I thoroughly enjoyed my time flying in the UK
Horgy
I flew 60 hours one month, so it worked out well for me. My point was there are lots of good deals to be had regarding hour building in the UK - people shouldn't be so quick to jump on the America bandwagon. I thoroughly enjoyed my time flying in the UK
Horgy
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Mr Horgy
I could not agree more about hour building in the UK/Europe, the problem with the British is that they are all obsessed with the idea that the UK is a total rip off and the USA is always better value, but they seem to forget to factor in all the costs of going to the USA.
Most of my customers are people who have tried the USA and have found that the grass is not as green as they had been told!
Most of my customers are people who have tried the USA and have found that the grass is not as green as they had been told!
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I have to go with that A&C. Many here seem to treat the US issue as gospel and dictate it here as so without carefully doing a budget first, or indeed making out that they know for sure without having actually done it themselves.