MCL - Is it Mickey Mouse?
If any UK FTOs eventually take up the MPL there is no way it will be cheaper that an Intergrated ATPL. With so much of the training required to be undertaken on a type-specific simulator this is not cheap. Compare £400-500 hr for an A320 sim compared with £250-300 hour for a twin. Possibly cheaper lower fidelity sims may be allowed to be used for some of the training but not all.
In fact it is possible that the MPL will be MORE expensive because of this.
In fact it is possible that the MPL will be MORE expensive because of this.
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Snuble....Good luck
Mach 086...
I did get all your points, I don't think that I made myself clear enough so here goes.
The MPL must be done in conjunction with a Airline, you will only be able to fly for that airline and no other, if you wish to change jobs you have to start again.(At least that is my understanding).
You will only be allowed to fly one model of aircraft, again this could be a Boeing 737-300 or a 900 but not both, however if you wish it could be a Airbus A318 or a Airbus A320, but once again not both.
The differences you talk of refers to Type Ratings that have been sat by people who have ATPL's or CPL's with ATPL Theory passed (Frozen ATPL). I can fly 7 different types of 737 on my licence as long as I do differences training.
The MPL cannot be done on spec, therefore you are tied to a Airline, see above.
Assuming (I hate that word, but) you do get a job with Air Kazakstan on a Mega planes Z673, based in eastern europe, (for example, as I don't see any Uk based operator looking at this, after all they have a ready and willing supply of self funded wannabees), what happens when you want to leave and come back to good old blighty???? Back to square one.
Also what if your airline decide to change from all Megaplanes to Superbus, your well and trully stuffed, yet again, Back to square one.
Do not think for one second that any airline is going to pay you the same salary as a fully quallified ATPL or Frozen ATPL, because they will find an excuse not to. They are after all in the business of making money.
Lastly..... if MPL really is the way forward, imagine the crisis that will happen in the next 10 to 20 years as older pilots retire and there will be no Captains available as everyone will have MPL's..........
Tony
PS. Snuble, one final point, I have always found any training establishment to be completely unbiased as any goverment organisation is as well.
Airlines can change from hot to cold, at least the current route gives you lots more options.
Mach 086...
I did get all your points, I don't think that I made myself clear enough so here goes.
The MPL must be done in conjunction with a Airline, you will only be able to fly for that airline and no other, if you wish to change jobs you have to start again.(At least that is my understanding).
You will only be allowed to fly one model of aircraft, again this could be a Boeing 737-300 or a 900 but not both, however if you wish it could be a Airbus A318 or a Airbus A320, but once again not both.
The differences you talk of refers to Type Ratings that have been sat by people who have ATPL's or CPL's with ATPL Theory passed (Frozen ATPL). I can fly 7 different types of 737 on my licence as long as I do differences training.
The MPL cannot be done on spec, therefore you are tied to a Airline, see above.
Assuming (I hate that word, but) you do get a job with Air Kazakstan on a Mega planes Z673, based in eastern europe, (for example, as I don't see any Uk based operator looking at this, after all they have a ready and willing supply of self funded wannabees), what happens when you want to leave and come back to good old blighty???? Back to square one.
Also what if your airline decide to change from all Megaplanes to Superbus, your well and trully stuffed, yet again, Back to square one.
Do not think for one second that any airline is going to pay you the same salary as a fully quallified ATPL or Frozen ATPL, because they will find an excuse not to. They are after all in the business of making money.
Lastly..... if MPL really is the way forward, imagine the crisis that will happen in the next 10 to 20 years as older pilots retire and there will be no Captains available as everyone will have MPL's..........
Tony
PS. Snuble, one final point, I have always found any training establishment to be completely unbiased as any goverment organisation is as well.
Airlines can change from hot to cold, at least the current route gives you lots more options.
Last edited by Antonio Montana; 26th Jul 2007 at 08:33.
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snuble, I truly wish you well - but in my opinion you are a very brave individual!
As I have said (and why the question was aked in the first place) no-one knows how this license will pan out. And even if it does become the norm/is found to be an excellent route into jets the teething problems will take some time to iron out and you will suffer all of them!
When the JAA exams came out they were farcical (and even a few years later they had no rotary ones so helicopter pilots were learning all about things happening at 30,000 feet becaus they just had to do the fixed wing ones - has that even been rectified yet?). It gat to the stage where questions were non-sensical mistranslations and training schools were advising candidtates to put 'b' for every question that they thought didn't make sense (if it was right no problem - if it was wrong then enough people got it wrong to have the question withdrawn and marks awarded).
The JAA system probably works quite well now, but I would rather have been the last CAA candidite than the first JAA one!
And as has been mentioned - you will probably still take the financial hit anyway?
Previously 200 hr candidates could not fly jets (the old CAA self-improver route) and everyone had to build 700 hours before applying. When that changed wannabes expected jet jobs straight off and do you think they are better off for it? The £75,000 course came into existance, add on to that the £25,000 self-sponsored rating, or perhaps the 'work six months for free with no job guarentee at the end' airline affiliated route. How about the, join us but on a reduced salary for 5 years (BA) - and don't even start with O'leary air.
At the moment a type rating on an airbus without 500 hours on the line is nothing more than a very expensive peice of paper; probably pretty similar to the MCL - but with more flexibility.
As has been sai the MCL is effectively an airline sponsorship (with you paying everything) so however it is set up there may be a job with that airline. I wouldn't expect it to be a huge financial benefit in the long run though! Airlines will squeeze terms and conditions as much as they can until pilots go on strike and they have a balance. Do you think hundreds of pilots who are either so far from thier training they don't care or are new and paid a lot will risk their jobs for your MCL T&Cs? And you will be very limited in your flexibility - Captain (no) company change fleets (no) company want you to mve base with a different fleet type (no). And in 15 years time as a junior FO with kids you will probably have to resign and do an ATPL before applying for a Capt's job (and if you are in a seniority based company would have to join as the most junior FO - so that probably restricts choice even more)
As I said - I wish you all the best, and someone has to be first,
but with my entire future career at stake I'm just glad it isn't me
As I have said (and why the question was aked in the first place) no-one knows how this license will pan out. And even if it does become the norm/is found to be an excellent route into jets the teething problems will take some time to iron out and you will suffer all of them!
When the JAA exams came out they were farcical (and even a few years later they had no rotary ones so helicopter pilots were learning all about things happening at 30,000 feet becaus they just had to do the fixed wing ones - has that even been rectified yet?). It gat to the stage where questions were non-sensical mistranslations and training schools were advising candidtates to put 'b' for every question that they thought didn't make sense (if it was right no problem - if it was wrong then enough people got it wrong to have the question withdrawn and marks awarded).
The JAA system probably works quite well now, but I would rather have been the last CAA candidite than the first JAA one!
And as has been mentioned - you will probably still take the financial hit anyway?
Previously 200 hr candidates could not fly jets (the old CAA self-improver route) and everyone had to build 700 hours before applying. When that changed wannabes expected jet jobs straight off and do you think they are better off for it? The £75,000 course came into existance, add on to that the £25,000 self-sponsored rating, or perhaps the 'work six months for free with no job guarentee at the end' airline affiliated route. How about the, join us but on a reduced salary for 5 years (BA) - and don't even start with O'leary air.
At the moment a type rating on an airbus without 500 hours on the line is nothing more than a very expensive peice of paper; probably pretty similar to the MCL - but with more flexibility.
As has been sai the MCL is effectively an airline sponsorship (with you paying everything) so however it is set up there may be a job with that airline. I wouldn't expect it to be a huge financial benefit in the long run though! Airlines will squeeze terms and conditions as much as they can until pilots go on strike and they have a balance. Do you think hundreds of pilots who are either so far from thier training they don't care or are new and paid a lot will risk their jobs for your MCL T&Cs? And you will be very limited in your flexibility - Captain (no) company change fleets (no) company want you to mve base with a different fleet type (no). And in 15 years time as a junior FO with kids you will probably have to resign and do an ATPL before applying for a Capt's job (and if you are in a seniority based company would have to join as the most junior FO - so that probably restricts choice even more)
As I said - I wish you all the best, and someone has to be first,
but with my entire future career at stake I'm just glad it isn't me
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There seems to be a lot of misinformation here. Suggest you pop off to the JAA.nl website and have a read of the latest JAR FCL document. If you look under the priviledges of the MPL as far as I can see there is nothing to preclude an MPL holder from upgrading to an ATPL and therefore being a captain of a multi crew aircraft in due course.
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Tony
Im still confused:
"The MPL must be done in conjunction with a Airline, you will only be able to fly for that airline and no other, if you wish to change jobs you have to start again.(At least that is my understanding)."
How can that be? You spend 2 years flying an A320 with that airline, got a thousand hours or so under your belt. got paid. Got the experience. Went on extra courses etc. You then go for British Airways Job or a major airline and ur head to head with Mr ATPL who for the past 2 years has lived a life in a cessna?? I don't understand what you mean by - "start again".
I'm really confused by this "start again" thing. Imagine youve done 5 years on an A320 for Garuda Indonesia or whatever, and accumulated 4000 hours. U apply for a job at a major airline who are willing to train pilots from any background for A340-500 flights from LA-Singapore. Are you saying you stand less of a chance compared to the ATPL pilot who has 2 years in a cessna, and 3 years as a flight instructor in the same cessna??? Suley not.
PLease explain.
Im still confused:
"The MPL must be done in conjunction with a Airline, you will only be able to fly for that airline and no other, if you wish to change jobs you have to start again.(At least that is my understanding)."
How can that be? You spend 2 years flying an A320 with that airline, got a thousand hours or so under your belt. got paid. Got the experience. Went on extra courses etc. You then go for British Airways Job or a major airline and ur head to head with Mr ATPL who for the past 2 years has lived a life in a cessna?? I don't understand what you mean by - "start again".
I'm really confused by this "start again" thing. Imagine youve done 5 years on an A320 for Garuda Indonesia or whatever, and accumulated 4000 hours. U apply for a job at a major airline who are willing to train pilots from any background for A340-500 flights from LA-Singapore. Are you saying you stand less of a chance compared to the ATPL pilot who has 2 years in a cessna, and 3 years as a flight instructor in the same cessna??? Suley not.
PLease explain.
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"There seems to be a lot of misinformation here. Suggest you pop off to the JAA.nl website and have a read of the latest JAR FCL document. If you look under the priviledges of the MPL as far as I can see there is nothing to preclude an MPL holder from upgrading to an ATPL and therefore being a captain of a multi crew aircraft in due course."
Exactly.
Exactly.
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HI Ropey Pilot,
I was part or at least under the scheme of a large pro-pilot training organisation who (relatively speaking) took the leap and dropped everything to instigate the MPL. Whilst I left before it began, the initial introduction was disastrous! They could not keep up with all the changes to policies and schemes. I also think it si still a bit of a gamble. Only the so-called "desperate" airlines will take MPL candidates. It is a big gamble with £36k. I know the Asian company youre talking about too...
Still, the flip side of the coin is "what if it works...?"
That would leap-frog all the usual red-tape and licences, etc.
End of the day, its down to how comfortable you feel with the concept. As good ol' Del Boy would say, " 'ee 'oo dares, wins, innit?"
Let me know what you decide and stay in touch. You could be one of the lucky few to start a revelution!
WTAS
I was part or at least under the scheme of a large pro-pilot training organisation who (relatively speaking) took the leap and dropped everything to instigate the MPL. Whilst I left before it began, the initial introduction was disastrous! They could not keep up with all the changes to policies and schemes. I also think it si still a bit of a gamble. Only the so-called "desperate" airlines will take MPL candidates. It is a big gamble with £36k. I know the Asian company youre talking about too...
Still, the flip side of the coin is "what if it works...?"
That would leap-frog all the usual red-tape and licences, etc.
End of the day, its down to how comfortable you feel with the concept. As good ol' Del Boy would say, " 'ee 'oo dares, wins, innit?"
Let me know what you decide and stay in touch. You could be one of the lucky few to start a revelution!
WTAS
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Okay thanks for that Potkettleblack, I did have a look its all here:
http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/607069.pdf
Starts on page 214.
So maybe I was a bit judgemental
However..
It seems to me that the overriding factor is that you will only be a copilot.
So after all that spend, if you want to go the whole hog and get your CPL, IR etc... you would have to fork out a load more money...... I think I might set my self up in business as a training school.....
I would be very cautious going this route.
Tony
mach 086, its dammed simple. every Airline does things slighly different, that is my point, if this licence is Airline Specific then you will be stuck, I cannot be bothered to argue with you dear boy.
http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/607069.pdf
Starts on page 214.
So maybe I was a bit judgemental
However..
It seems to me that the overriding factor is that you will only be a copilot.
So after all that spend, if you want to go the whole hog and get your CPL, IR etc... you would have to fork out a load more money...... I think I might set my self up in business as a training school.....
I would be very cautious going this route.
Tony
mach 086, its dammed simple. every Airline does things slighly different, that is my point, if this licence is Airline Specific then you will be stuck, I cannot be bothered to argue with you dear boy.
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Can an airline extend the usual "bonding for training" concept to being able to snaffle those MPL candidates [who are essentially under-time CPL people sheilded from the usual complex (but diverse) training route] and keep them under the thumb career wise as well as financially?
It seems to be a step backwards in that case - it used to be that as a trade-off for training/ratings, you would promise long service ("bond"), but now they will limit your opportunity for promotion and advancement too? ("F/O only..)
Is that the reality of the MPL?
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its dammed simple. every Airline does things slighly different, that is my point, if this licence is Airline Specific then you will be stuck, I cannot be bothered to argue with you dear boy.
Perhaps that is the confusion. The MPL is not airline specific.
Which means if upon succesful completion of the MPL and u got a job cos u got sponsorship with the airline, then for the next how ever many years you are earning hundreds of hours being paid etc, whist ATPL pilot is still flying cessnas or dumping weed killer. So when that opportunity comes up for a posiion at a major airline, the MPL person has the most experience with 1000 odd hours in an A320.
I do agree with the main point thought that Tony and others are saying - its really to early and risky to be the guinea pig.
Perhaps that is the confusion. The MPL is not airline specific.
Which means if upon succesful completion of the MPL and u got a job cos u got sponsorship with the airline, then for the next how ever many years you are earning hundreds of hours being paid etc, whist ATPL pilot is still flying cessnas or dumping weed killer. So when that opportunity comes up for a posiion at a major airline, the MPL person has the most experience with 1000 odd hours in an A320.
I do agree with the main point thought that Tony and others are saying - its really to early and risky to be the guinea pig.
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Mach086....
Are you REALLY SURE that the MPL here in JAR land will NOT be airline specific.... I am not so sure and BEgale feels it is as well.
That said I am NOT an authority on this subject and if you want to get all the facts I would suggest calling up the CAA at Gatwick. They will know.
Are you REALLY SURE that the MPL here in JAR land will NOT be airline specific.... I am not so sure and BEgale feels it is as well.
That said I am NOT an authority on this subject and if you want to get all the facts I would suggest calling up the CAA at Gatwick. They will know.
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Having spent about 5 minutes reading the JAR FCL document here are my thoughts:-
- People are getting caught up about it being airline specific. I think a number of you are comparing apples and oranges. From my understanding the MPL is only airline specific in relation to getting approvals as a TRTO/FTO or whatever fancy name they want to throw at the organisation who runs the training. I couldn't see any reason for organisations like GECAT not to offer an MPL course subject of course to them meeting all of the required JAA approvals and having sufficient sim availability. At the end of the day you come away with a type rating on a specific aircraft type and I could see no reason why you can't take that to another operator at a later date if you so wish.
- to understand the privileges of the MPL you need to read all the cross references that are in the JAR FCL document. You can't just read it in isolation. For example it cross refers to the section on CPL and IR privileges. With a CPL and ticks in the boxes for 1,500 hours, 500 multi crew in a multi pilot, night hours etc etc then there should be no reason why you can't upgrade to an ATPL. This usually takes the form of a few extra bits and pieces during one of your OPC's in the sim.
- I see no reference whatsoever to say that you will not be able to command a jet. Someone can enlighten me on that.
Finally you need to stand back and see what the whole aim of the MPL is about. It was mooted years ago by a few European airlines (think one might have been Lufthansa) that had significant spare simulator and training capacity. They clearly had issues with the current form of training and felt that it had little relevance to a modern airlines operations. They felt that they could train someone from zero to hero to a much higher standard than the traditional route of bimbling around in a C152 then stepping up to a 40 year old tired old twin and capping that off with an MCC course conducted in a glorified cardboard bomber with the autopilot on whilst you convince yourself that you are working together as a multi pilot crew just because you are able to shout out a few standard calls here and there.
Having gone through all of the above then stepped into a full conversion course (type rating) on a medium jet, had my head into SOP's, QRH's, operations manuals and FCOM's, followed by base training, then line training and a line check I can honestly see where they are coming from. My days of negotiating MATZ penetrations, balancing my kneeboard whilst trying to plot a position fix, having an instructor that would take delight in chopping the throttle on one of the engines when I was looking the other way outside all whilst having no autopilot, no tcas and no anti ice are thankfully behind me. Don't get me wrong I would still like to go for the odd trip with mates that have PPL's to get some handflying in but the MPL is probably heading in the right direction.
The doubting thomas's are generally those that have a vested interest in renting you that £300/hr battered old twin and have little comprehension of what airline flying involves nor wish to move with the times.
- People are getting caught up about it being airline specific. I think a number of you are comparing apples and oranges. From my understanding the MPL is only airline specific in relation to getting approvals as a TRTO/FTO or whatever fancy name they want to throw at the organisation who runs the training. I couldn't see any reason for organisations like GECAT not to offer an MPL course subject of course to them meeting all of the required JAA approvals and having sufficient sim availability. At the end of the day you come away with a type rating on a specific aircraft type and I could see no reason why you can't take that to another operator at a later date if you so wish.
- to understand the privileges of the MPL you need to read all the cross references that are in the JAR FCL document. You can't just read it in isolation. For example it cross refers to the section on CPL and IR privileges. With a CPL and ticks in the boxes for 1,500 hours, 500 multi crew in a multi pilot, night hours etc etc then there should be no reason why you can't upgrade to an ATPL. This usually takes the form of a few extra bits and pieces during one of your OPC's in the sim.
- I see no reference whatsoever to say that you will not be able to command a jet. Someone can enlighten me on that.
Finally you need to stand back and see what the whole aim of the MPL is about. It was mooted years ago by a few European airlines (think one might have been Lufthansa) that had significant spare simulator and training capacity. They clearly had issues with the current form of training and felt that it had little relevance to a modern airlines operations. They felt that they could train someone from zero to hero to a much higher standard than the traditional route of bimbling around in a C152 then stepping up to a 40 year old tired old twin and capping that off with an MCC course conducted in a glorified cardboard bomber with the autopilot on whilst you convince yourself that you are working together as a multi pilot crew just because you are able to shout out a few standard calls here and there.
Having gone through all of the above then stepped into a full conversion course (type rating) on a medium jet, had my head into SOP's, QRH's, operations manuals and FCOM's, followed by base training, then line training and a line check I can honestly see where they are coming from. My days of negotiating MATZ penetrations, balancing my kneeboard whilst trying to plot a position fix, having an instructor that would take delight in chopping the throttle on one of the engines when I was looking the other way outside all whilst having no autopilot, no tcas and no anti ice are thankfully behind me. Don't get me wrong I would still like to go for the odd trip with mates that have PPL's to get some handflying in but the MPL is probably heading in the right direction.
The doubting thomas's are generally those that have a vested interest in renting you that £300/hr battered old twin and have little comprehension of what airline flying involves nor wish to move with the times.
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Potkettleblack,
I do not have any axe to grind with MPL. I too went through the mill getting all the tick's in the box and also can see the possible benifits of such a course.
However to quote Page 215,
JAR–FCL 1.530 Skill
(See Appendices 1 and 2 to
JAR-FCL 1.240 & 1.295)
(See Appendix 1 to JAR-
FCL 1.520 & 1.525)
(a) An applicant for a MPL(A) shall have
demonstrated the skills required for fulfilling all
the competency units specified in Appendix 1 to
JAR-FCL 1.520 & 1.525 as pilot flying and pilot
not flying, to the level required to perform as a
co-pilot of a multi-engine turbine-powered
aeroplane certificated for operation with a
minimum crew of at least two pilots under VFR
and IFR with a degree of competency
appropriate to the privileges granted to the
holder of a MPL(A). An applicant shall take the
skill test as set out in Appendices 1 and 2 to
JAR-FCL 1.240 & 1.295 in the aeroplane type
used on the advanced phase of the MPL(A)
integrated training course.
the bit that concerns me is "perform as a
co-pilot of a multi-engine turbine-powered
aeroplane certificated for operation with a
minimum crew of at least two pilots" etc....
This seems mad going through all of this and only being a copilot.
I do not have any axe to grind with MPL. I too went through the mill getting all the tick's in the box and also can see the possible benifits of such a course.
However to quote Page 215,
JAR–FCL 1.530 Skill
(See Appendices 1 and 2 to
JAR-FCL 1.240 & 1.295)
(See Appendix 1 to JAR-
FCL 1.520 & 1.525)
(a) An applicant for a MPL(A) shall have
demonstrated the skills required for fulfilling all
the competency units specified in Appendix 1 to
JAR-FCL 1.520 & 1.525 as pilot flying and pilot
not flying, to the level required to perform as a
co-pilot of a multi-engine turbine-powered
aeroplane certificated for operation with a
minimum crew of at least two pilots under VFR
and IFR with a degree of competency
appropriate to the privileges granted to the
holder of a MPL(A). An applicant shall take the
skill test as set out in Appendices 1 and 2 to
JAR-FCL 1.240 & 1.295 in the aeroplane type
used on the advanced phase of the MPL(A)
integrated training course.
the bit that concerns me is "perform as a
co-pilot of a multi-engine turbine-powered
aeroplane certificated for operation with a
minimum crew of at least two pilots" etc....
This seems mad going through all of this and only being a copilot.
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Antonio,
You are right in pointing out that the MPL is only a co-pilot licence.
So is the CPL/IR/MCC/Typerating you have after the "classic" route.
After meeting some minimum hours and an additional check,both will be an ATPL, which allows you to be PIC. (assuming you do ATPL theory). So no dead end either way. Actually getting the fourth stripe will come considerable time later than the ATPL in any case.
You can think of the MPL as a CPL/IR/MCC/Typerating integrated course, minus the SEP/MEP class ratings, minus the Single-Pilot IR, which you don't need anyway.
The only real drawback I can see for an airline wannabe is that if you don't get that co-pilot job straight away, you don't have the option to "park" yourself doing an instructor rating or flying lighter aircraft for money while waiting for the next job - so your value will decrease rapidly.
Which of the two paths produces better airline pilots only time will tell.
You are right in pointing out that the MPL is only a co-pilot licence.
So is the CPL/IR/MCC/Typerating you have after the "classic" route.
After meeting some minimum hours and an additional check,both will be an ATPL, which allows you to be PIC. (assuming you do ATPL theory). So no dead end either way. Actually getting the fourth stripe will come considerable time later than the ATPL in any case.
You can think of the MPL as a CPL/IR/MCC/Typerating integrated course, minus the SEP/MEP class ratings, minus the Single-Pilot IR, which you don't need anyway.
The only real drawback I can see for an airline wannabe is that if you don't get that co-pilot job straight away, you don't have the option to "park" yourself doing an instructor rating or flying lighter aircraft for money while waiting for the next job - so your value will decrease rapidly.
Which of the two paths produces better airline pilots only time will tell.
Last edited by Cobalt; 26th Jul 2007 at 19:07. Reason: Reply-to fixed
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Of course you are to:
The skill test is for a MPL, not ATPL. When you have the hours, you take the ATPL skill test performing as the commander.
A MPL licence is either restricted to a specific type, nor airline. The only restriction is that you have to be part of a multipilot crew, performing on a multipilt aircraft.
-Snuble
"perform as a
co-pilot of a multi-engine turbine-powered
aeroplane certificated for operation with a
minimum crew of at least two pilots" etc....
co-pilot of a multi-engine turbine-powered
aeroplane certificated for operation with a
minimum crew of at least two pilots" etc....
A MPL licence is either restricted to a specific type, nor airline. The only restriction is that you have to be part of a multipilot crew, performing on a multipilt aircraft.
-Snuble
But since no captain in his/her right mind is going to allow a MPL wireless operator/flap snatcher to fly the aircraft, he/her will never accrue any PICU/S time, only copulate P2 time.....
You want a professional wireless operator/flap snatcher's licence - go for the MPL if you're stupid enough. Otherwise stick to the tried and tested route.
Incidentally, even LH are now getting cold feet. Their CEO, Wolfgang Mayrhuber, frequently asserts that their pilots are ultra safe because they receive more than the minimum level of training. That would vanish instantly if they were to subscribe to the Plastic Pilot Licence idea.
You want a professional wireless operator/flap snatcher's licence - go for the MPL if you're stupid enough. Otherwise stick to the tried and tested route.
Incidentally, even LH are now getting cold feet. Their CEO, Wolfgang Mayrhuber, frequently asserts that their pilots are ultra safe because they receive more than the minimum level of training. That would vanish instantly if they were to subscribe to the Plastic Pilot Licence idea.
Last edited by BEagle; 27th Jul 2007 at 19:04.
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"the bit that concerns me is "perform as a
co-pilot of a multi-engine turbine-powered
aeroplane certificated for operation with a
minimum crew of at least two pilots" etc....
This seems mad going through all of this and only being a copilot."
Tony. When you graduate from pilot school - assuming you have a job to walk into straight away with either an ATPL or MPL - you are a C0-Pilot anyway!!!
The point is who gets their foot in the door first? Who gets the head start? Who gets the interview? Is it ATPL guy with a year in a cessna or the MPL person with Airbus A320 rating. (or whatever the plane is). The MPL guy then goes on extra courses whilst still building hours, getting paid, getting experience etc.
Btw, the MPL flight school I'm talking about, one of the current trainees has been given an Interview with Gulf Air. So obviously a major airline like that doesn't think the MPL is "Plastic".
And also, The MPL school I'm talking about will be opening another centre in Sharjah with 8 more to come around asia. Something tells me that with emirates order of 40 odd A380's and tons of 777-300ERs on order, gulf air and Eithad ordering planes left right and centre, there must obviosly be a business case for another MPL centre to be open in UAE.
co-pilot of a multi-engine turbine-powered
aeroplane certificated for operation with a
minimum crew of at least two pilots" etc....
This seems mad going through all of this and only being a copilot."
Tony. When you graduate from pilot school - assuming you have a job to walk into straight away with either an ATPL or MPL - you are a C0-Pilot anyway!!!
The point is who gets their foot in the door first? Who gets the head start? Who gets the interview? Is it ATPL guy with a year in a cessna or the MPL person with Airbus A320 rating. (or whatever the plane is). The MPL guy then goes on extra courses whilst still building hours, getting paid, getting experience etc.
Btw, the MPL flight school I'm talking about, one of the current trainees has been given an Interview with Gulf Air. So obviously a major airline like that doesn't think the MPL is "Plastic".
And also, The MPL school I'm talking about will be opening another centre in Sharjah with 8 more to come around asia. Something tells me that with emirates order of 40 odd A380's and tons of 777-300ERs on order, gulf air and Eithad ordering planes left right and centre, there must obviosly be a business case for another MPL centre to be open in UAE.
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Mach 086,
Eh.... no you are wrong, very wrong.
On my very first line training flight, I flew one sector PICUS (thats pilot in Command Under Supervision) Not co pilot. I have a CPL and am trained to fly a B737 as PIC by my self if needed, eg if the captain died.....
As I said before, you obviously have already made your mind up what you want to do and good luck to you.
Also can someone please direct me to the part were JAR FCL 1 does mention the MPL being upgraded to a full ATPL??????? I cannot find it in either Subpart K or Subpart G.
Mach 086, you asked for debate on this licence and you got it, but you are obviously better informed than any of us on here, even those of us who have your dream job.
I suggest that you have a look at the links that I went out of my way for you to get, which I then read and cross referenced regarding the MPL, so I have a better understanding of it, but of course you don't need to do that as you are no doubt infallible. I will not waste my time arguing the merits of a untried and untested system that has been met with a lot of skepticism by industry professionals, you know better.
Finally to quote Jack Crawford, Former FBI Section Chief "to assume, is to make an ASS out of U and ME", just in case you are wondering who he is he was the boss of Miss Clarice Starling, in a rather good book I once read.
Tony
By the way Gulf Air.... From their website quote
"Cadet Pilots
This programme is available to owner state nationals holding school diplomas. It covers full pilot training on completion of which the individual is qualified to take up a position as a First Officer.
Eligibility
To be eligible to apply, the following criteria must be met:
Be a national of an owner state (Bahrain and Oman)
Be between 19 and 35 years of age
Be a high school graduate (science stream)"
Mach086 you live in London, I take that you are not from Oman or Bahrain, still I am sure that will not preclude you from applying to them.......
Eh.... no you are wrong, very wrong.
On my very first line training flight, I flew one sector PICUS (thats pilot in Command Under Supervision) Not co pilot. I have a CPL and am trained to fly a B737 as PIC by my self if needed, eg if the captain died.....
As I said before, you obviously have already made your mind up what you want to do and good luck to you.
Also can someone please direct me to the part were JAR FCL 1 does mention the MPL being upgraded to a full ATPL??????? I cannot find it in either Subpart K or Subpart G.
Mach 086, you asked for debate on this licence and you got it, but you are obviously better informed than any of us on here, even those of us who have your dream job.
I suggest that you have a look at the links that I went out of my way for you to get, which I then read and cross referenced regarding the MPL, so I have a better understanding of it, but of course you don't need to do that as you are no doubt infallible. I will not waste my time arguing the merits of a untried and untested system that has been met with a lot of skepticism by industry professionals, you know better.
Finally to quote Jack Crawford, Former FBI Section Chief "to assume, is to make an ASS out of U and ME", just in case you are wondering who he is he was the boss of Miss Clarice Starling, in a rather good book I once read.
Tony
By the way Gulf Air.... From their website quote
"Cadet Pilots
This programme is available to owner state nationals holding school diplomas. It covers full pilot training on completion of which the individual is qualified to take up a position as a First Officer.
Eligibility
To be eligible to apply, the following criteria must be met:
Be a national of an owner state (Bahrain and Oman)
Be between 19 and 35 years of age
Be a high school graduate (science stream)"
Mach086 you live in London, I take that you are not from Oman or Bahrain, still I am sure that will not preclude you from applying to them.......
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By the way Gulf Air.... From their website quote
"Cadet Pilots
This programme is available to owner state nationals holding school diplomas. It covers full pilot training on completion of which the individual is qualified to take up a position as a First Officer.
Eligibility
To be eligible to apply, the following criteria must be met:
Be a national of an owner state (Bahrain and Oman)
Be between 19 and 35 years of age
Be a high school graduate (science stream)"
Mach086 you live in London, I take that you are not from Oman or Bahrain, still I am sure that will not preclude you from applying to them.......
Tony,
You are an intelligent person - You say you are a pilot (even though you seem to be here everyday??). Anyway, lets not get personal.
Surely even you must be able to see that my point is that if Gulf Air are interviewing MPL cadets - then it can't be that "Plastic" can it?
I have no intention whatsoever of being based in the desert. The Point was if Gulf Air are interviewing, then MPL can't be that bad. But I guess according to you
"an untried and untested system that has been met with a lot of skepticism by industry professionals"
Gulf Air is not professional. Can someone please confirm that Gulf Air are a World Class airline and one of the leading airlines in Arabia as well as the world with Airbus/Boeings or do they all fly ilyushins?
"you are obviously better informed than any of us on here, even those of us who have your dream job...you know better"
I dont know better - hence why I am here. But unless anyone can tell me that Gulf Air are a terrible unprofessional airline, then I'll treat Gulf Air's views on the MPL as credible.
Also i see you have totally ignored that fact that the MPL college are opening a school in UAE which means there must be a business case. but I await your view that Emirates and Eithad will join Gulf Air as unprofessional becasue they interview MPL candidates.
But thanks for your opinions - and I mean that without sarcasm. I still haven't made up my mind and after our recent discussions, I'm further away from a decision than I was before.
"Cadet Pilots
This programme is available to owner state nationals holding school diplomas. It covers full pilot training on completion of which the individual is qualified to take up a position as a First Officer.
Eligibility
To be eligible to apply, the following criteria must be met:
Be a national of an owner state (Bahrain and Oman)
Be between 19 and 35 years of age
Be a high school graduate (science stream)"
Mach086 you live in London, I take that you are not from Oman or Bahrain, still I am sure that will not preclude you from applying to them.......
Tony,
You are an intelligent person - You say you are a pilot (even though you seem to be here everyday??). Anyway, lets not get personal.
Surely even you must be able to see that my point is that if Gulf Air are interviewing MPL cadets - then it can't be that "Plastic" can it?
I have no intention whatsoever of being based in the desert. The Point was if Gulf Air are interviewing, then MPL can't be that bad. But I guess according to you
"an untried and untested system that has been met with a lot of skepticism by industry professionals"
Gulf Air is not professional. Can someone please confirm that Gulf Air are a World Class airline and one of the leading airlines in Arabia as well as the world with Airbus/Boeings or do they all fly ilyushins?
"you are obviously better informed than any of us on here, even those of us who have your dream job...you know better"
I dont know better - hence why I am here. But unless anyone can tell me that Gulf Air are a terrible unprofessional airline, then I'll treat Gulf Air's views on the MPL as credible.
Also i see you have totally ignored that fact that the MPL college are opening a school in UAE which means there must be a business case. but I await your view that Emirates and Eithad will join Gulf Air as unprofessional becasue they interview MPL candidates.
But thanks for your opinions - and I mean that without sarcasm. I still haven't made up my mind and after our recent discussions, I'm further away from a decision than I was before.
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God having three days off in a row must mean I am not a pilot anymore
then!!!!!!! Damm I'd better not report for work this evening then.
Mach086 I have had my say, I will not get into any further disscussion on this, I have tried to help.
Gulf Air are ONE airline, I cannot remember how many there where when Flight last did their World Airline Directory but it was a hell of a lot more than that.
I am not knocking the MPL the current system has its problems, however you are strongly defending a new untested and untried licence, what if ICAO decide it unworkable with in five years and scrap it?????
Tony
editided to add: Gulf Air DO NOT mention on their website anything regarding MPL. Sorry
then!!!!!!! Damm I'd better not report for work this evening then.
Mach086 I have had my say, I will not get into any further disscussion on this, I have tried to help.
Gulf Air are ONE airline, I cannot remember how many there where when Flight last did their World Airline Directory but it was a hell of a lot more than that.
I am not knocking the MPL the current system has its problems, however you are strongly defending a new untested and untried licence, what if ICAO decide it unworkable with in five years and scrap it?????
Tony
editided to add: Gulf Air DO NOT mention on their website anything regarding MPL. Sorry
Last edited by Antonio Montana; 27th Jul 2007 at 13:29.