Instrument Training and Rating
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Instrument Training and Rating
Helllo ppruners ,i am currently working for my faa meir (as part of my time building for the Jar licenses ),before i call Caa i wanted to check here first ,according to my instructor , the head of training in my school and off course the Fars i can log the time as PIC during my instrument training but i dont know what will the caa think when they see pic/ifr in a logbook of a non intrument qualified pilot, i dont really care if they just consider it as total and not pic but i am just worried if they dont give me any credit for it Thanks in advance for any answers/suggestion
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IR before CPL?
Hi all, am due to start my CPL/IR training in the UK in Jan, however am considering doing my IR first, as the Jan weather will I think delay the CPL training somewhat.
I have however been advised against this by the flight school im off to, as they reckon that the IR is too much of a step up from the PPL, ie that doing the CPL first better prepares you for the IR.
What do the PPRUNE massive think of this?
Has anybody out there done their IR before their CPL, if so how did it go? did you find it difficult and what are the advantages/ disadvantages of doing each one before the other one?
I know their is a thread on this already, have tried using the search facility but its a load of crap really isnt it.
Cheers for any help,
The baddest raggamuffin in town.
I have however been advised against this by the flight school im off to, as they reckon that the IR is too much of a step up from the PPL, ie that doing the CPL first better prepares you for the IR.
What do the PPRUNE massive think of this?
Has anybody out there done their IR before their CPL, if so how did it go? did you find it difficult and what are the advantages/ disadvantages of doing each one before the other one?
I know their is a thread on this already, have tried using the search facility but its a load of crap really isnt it.
Cheers for any help,
The baddest raggamuffin in town.
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CPL first
Hi there,
If you are referring to the actual flight training for IR, do your CPL first.
You need X-country time anyway for both CPL and IR and building your hours towards CPL will give you the necessary experience and credits for the IR when you decide to do it. Keep in mind that IFR is not an easy thing to do and cannot be hurried. You need the hours.
Mind you, you have to study for the IR exam anyway so if you have done your CPL exams already, then study your IR while you build up your hours.
Not unless of course you have hundreds of hours already, then do IR.
Good luck
D6
If you are referring to the actual flight training for IR, do your CPL first.
You need X-country time anyway for both CPL and IR and building your hours towards CPL will give you the necessary experience and credits for the IR when you decide to do it. Keep in mind that IFR is not an easy thing to do and cannot be hurried. You need the hours.
Mind you, you have to study for the IR exam anyway so if you have done your CPL exams already, then study your IR while you build up your hours.
Not unless of course you have hundreds of hours already, then do IR.
Good luck
D6
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i somewhat agree with that. I am sure you are aware that you can obtain an IR on your PPL. If you have your PPL already, why not do it? However, what you learn (experience wise) on your CPL cross country flights is priceless.. trust me!!!
I would recommend gaining the CPL first, however as the person above said, think about taking the irex exam now. It is extremely hard, so start studying!!! Then get your CPL and start doing some sim work!
good luck
I would recommend gaining the CPL first, however as the person above said, think about taking the irex exam now. It is extremely hard, so start studying!!! Then get your CPL and start doing some sim work!
good luck
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I did IR before CPL
I did my IR first because like you I started my training in the winter. I started in December and passed my IR in January, my intention was to do the CPL in the May, however I ended up doing it straight after my IR in February.
I didn't find any problems doing my IR first and the CPL is an absolute breeze after you've done the IR.
I think you may do less hours by doing the IR first (ready to get shot down here). I did a 55 hours IR and 15 Hours CPL course whilst if you do it the other way round I think it's 25 hours minimum for the CPL and 50 hours minimum for the IR.
The thing to be cautious of with a winter IR is icing. If you get lots of cold days with cloud at 3000ft upwards you may be sat on the ground wishing you were doing your CPL, unless of course the aircraft you are learning in has TKS!
SW
I didn't find any problems doing my IR first and the CPL is an absolute breeze after you've done the IR.
I think you may do less hours by doing the IR first (ready to get shot down here). I did a 55 hours IR and 15 Hours CPL course whilst if you do it the other way round I think it's 25 hours minimum for the CPL and 50 hours minimum for the IR.
The thing to be cautious of with a winter IR is icing. If you get lots of cold days with cloud at 3000ft upwards you may be sat on the ground wishing you were doing your CPL, unless of course the aircraft you are learning in has TKS!
SW
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cir/cpl
hi badboy
I would strongly recommend doing your CPL before your CIR, there are a few reasons for this. Firstly the single pilot IFR is probably the most demanding flying that you will do, you really need to be up to speed with it all, so doing your CPL first will help you to consolidate your cockpit management skills and your basic nav (time, speed, dist etc...).Also, as stated on one of the other posts you need the command time too. I did my CIR is australia and, for memory, you need 50 hrs command cross country, 5 hrs command at night, and i cant quite remember how much IF time is required.I'm not sure what the requirements are in the UK but i'm sure that they will be roughly the same as the aus requirements.
I wouldnt worry too much about the WX mate thats just aviation and it would be good practice for you to just be prepared to handle the WX whatever it may be and whether you are IFR or VFR.
I reccomend CPL first Badboy. Good Luck!
I would strongly recommend doing your CPL before your CIR, there are a few reasons for this. Firstly the single pilot IFR is probably the most demanding flying that you will do, you really need to be up to speed with it all, so doing your CPL first will help you to consolidate your cockpit management skills and your basic nav (time, speed, dist etc...).Also, as stated on one of the other posts you need the command time too. I did my CIR is australia and, for memory, you need 50 hrs command cross country, 5 hrs command at night, and i cant quite remember how much IF time is required.I'm not sure what the requirements are in the UK but i'm sure that they will be roughly the same as the aus requirements.
I wouldnt worry too much about the WX mate thats just aviation and it would be good practice for you to just be prepared to handle the WX whatever it may be and whether you are IFR or VFR.
I reccomend CPL first Badboy. Good Luck!
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D6 and npasque why are you assuming he is talking about the FAA CPL and IR.
...is an FAA thing. Once you have you JAR ATPL (A) theory, there are no more exams to do in the UK.
I would probably recommend CPL first then IR, but I haven't done either in the UK yet. I have done my FAA IR and really enjoyed it.
I will probably convery my FAA IR to a JAR IR first though, as the CPL course is reduced by 10 hours if you do IR first, whereas the IR course is only reduced by 5 hours if you do CPL course first.
HB
...is an FAA thing. Once you have you JAR ATPL (A) theory, there are no more exams to do in the UK.
I would probably recommend CPL first then IR, but I haven't done either in the UK yet. I have done my FAA IR and really enjoyed it.
I will probably convery my FAA IR to a JAR IR first though, as the CPL course is reduced by 10 hours if you do IR first, whereas the IR course is only reduced by 5 hours if you do CPL course first.
HB
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I started my MEIR recently and am planning to do the CPL after. The school i am at suggests doing it this way. During the last 2 weeks they have only been doing IR training as the weather has been crap for CPL. The IR is hard work so far but not impossible. Everything is done at a reasonable pace and is taken from a "back to basics" from the start of the course. Im assuming you've done your ATPL's?? If you have the hours requirements then start with the IR. Start with the CPL and you'll still be at it for months with the weather. You can also knock off 10 hours of cpl training if you do IR first.
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I think you'll do OK either way. All other things being equal there is a sort of progression from PPL via CPL to IR in that your flying becomes more precise and professional.
Circumstances dictated that I actually did my IR first during late summer and it felt a bit odd after getting comfortable with IFR and feeling thats how most commercial flights are conducted to then go back to VFR and start looking for railway lines and feeling like I was a weekend warrior again. But thats just an observation, the only aggravation was that I kept having to axe CPL flights due to IMC now that it was October whereas IR flights could go ahead - so I had a lot of sitting around cursing the weather.
So seeing as you have the bad weather now and good weather to follow (in theory anyway) then I think you'd probably be quite smart to get your IR done rather than sit around on cloudy days.
Circumstances dictated that I actually did my IR first during late summer and it felt a bit odd after getting comfortable with IFR and feeling thats how most commercial flights are conducted to then go back to VFR and start looking for railway lines and feeling like I was a weekend warrior again. But thats just an observation, the only aggravation was that I kept having to axe CPL flights due to IMC now that it was October whereas IR flights could go ahead - so I had a lot of sitting around cursing the weather.
So seeing as you have the bad weather now and good weather to follow (in theory anyway) then I think you'd probably be quite smart to get your IR done rather than sit around on cloudy days.
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Cheers for the replies people.
No thanks however to the moderators, who have burried my question in a thread named "Me and IR" questions, thus meaning I will get a fraction of the advice that I might have got had it been left as an individual topic. Why have they started to do this kind of thing? The order of CPL and IR is a significant issue for any one doing commercial training, surely this, and indeed other IR related topics are worth of individual threads, rather than being all lumped in together. By continuing to merge topics in this way the modulators are doing a great disservice to the PPRUNE community.
For those who have got the wrong end of the stick, I am doing JAR training, and have taken and passed all the relevant exams. I am just coming to the end of my hours buliding in the US and will by Jan have sufficient hours (and a multi rating) to start either course.
I would still like to hear from more people who have taken their JAR IR first, was it hard, how did it go etc? Couldnt give a monkeys about the FAA one to be honest.
Also, is there anything to stop you from doing both at the same time, ie doing the CPL stuff on good weather days, and the IR on bad ones. I dont think there is, has any body done this?
Cheers,
The baddest raggamuffin in town.
No thanks however to the moderators, who have burried my question in a thread named "Me and IR" questions, thus meaning I will get a fraction of the advice that I might have got had it been left as an individual topic. Why have they started to do this kind of thing? The order of CPL and IR is a significant issue for any one doing commercial training, surely this, and indeed other IR related topics are worth of individual threads, rather than being all lumped in together. By continuing to merge topics in this way the modulators are doing a great disservice to the PPRUNE community.
For those who have got the wrong end of the stick, I am doing JAR training, and have taken and passed all the relevant exams. I am just coming to the end of my hours buliding in the US and will by Jan have sufficient hours (and a multi rating) to start either course.
I would still like to hear from more people who have taken their JAR IR first, was it hard, how did it go etc? Couldnt give a monkeys about the FAA one to be honest.
Also, is there anything to stop you from doing both at the same time, ie doing the CPL stuff on good weather days, and the IR on bad ones. I dont think there is, has any body done this?
Cheers,
The baddest raggamuffin in town.
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Scroggs
This thread has got very confusing since it has been merged. Is it possible to unmerge it and return the "IR before CPL" thread to a standalone thread or has it passed V1 / PNR now?
Thanks
SW
This thread has got very confusing since it has been merged. Is it possible to unmerge it and return the "IR before CPL" thread to a standalone thread or has it passed V1 / PNR now?
Thanks
SW
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Ir 4 Cpl??
Hi badboy raggermuffin,
I finished my training in June of this year. I did the IR first. There were a few reasons / advantages for this.
1:The school i attended advocated this, but i could have done the CPL first if i had wanted to, I am glad I didn't in hind sight.
2: Doing the IR first means you get 55hrs rather than the shorter 50hrs if you do the CPL first, so first advantage you get an extra 5hrs of instrument flying / Multi time over VFR flying following a line on a map.
3:In my opinion the CPL would not have helped me pass my IR, they are totally different styles of flying, IR head in cockpit / CPL head very much out of the cockpit!
The biggest reason I think so many go for the CPL first is that just the word IR sends shivers of fear down most peoples backs, the CPL is very much in peoples comfort zones being an advanced PPL, so it is only natural to pick the easier of the two first.
4:If you do the CPL first it is an 25hr course, rather than the shorter more sensible 15hrs if you have passed the IR. 25hrs is a total overkill IF your general flying is upto speed, you will be ready for test after 10-12hrs, so if doing the 25hr course you can look forward to another 13-15hrs of Nav Ex's and needing (hoping) for good VFR weather, rather than 3-5hrs if you have the IR under your belt.
5: Doing the IR first will certainly make your flying more accurate, build your confidence as you have the harder of the 2 tests out of the way, thereby making the CPL easier in my opinion, that is not to say that the CPL is easy, just easier than the IR. It was also great to go back to looking out of the window after not seeing anything for 6-7 weeks!! I actually quite enjoyed my CPL after the IR, but it really would have been a drag doing 25hrs, honestly.
6:If like you I was starting in Jan I would without doubt do my IR first, and hope for the better weather in late Feb / early March, knowing I only needed 15hrs of good VFR which can still take a while even in Summer. Mine took 3.5 weeks in May / June!!
Hope that helps you, I feel that is an honest accurate account of my experience. Dont get too mentally tied up in the difficulty of the IR, it is hard no question, but I found most of my fear was due to a lack of knowledge of what was involved, once you have done each section in the sim, all you have to do is put it all together. It isn't as bad as you maybe think it is, trust me!!
Cheers
Dan
I finished my training in June of this year. I did the IR first. There were a few reasons / advantages for this.
1:The school i attended advocated this, but i could have done the CPL first if i had wanted to, I am glad I didn't in hind sight.
2: Doing the IR first means you get 55hrs rather than the shorter 50hrs if you do the CPL first, so first advantage you get an extra 5hrs of instrument flying / Multi time over VFR flying following a line on a map.
3:In my opinion the CPL would not have helped me pass my IR, they are totally different styles of flying, IR head in cockpit / CPL head very much out of the cockpit!
The biggest reason I think so many go for the CPL first is that just the word IR sends shivers of fear down most peoples backs, the CPL is very much in peoples comfort zones being an advanced PPL, so it is only natural to pick the easier of the two first.
4:If you do the CPL first it is an 25hr course, rather than the shorter more sensible 15hrs if you have passed the IR. 25hrs is a total overkill IF your general flying is upto speed, you will be ready for test after 10-12hrs, so if doing the 25hr course you can look forward to another 13-15hrs of Nav Ex's and needing (hoping) for good VFR weather, rather than 3-5hrs if you have the IR under your belt.
5: Doing the IR first will certainly make your flying more accurate, build your confidence as you have the harder of the 2 tests out of the way, thereby making the CPL easier in my opinion, that is not to say that the CPL is easy, just easier than the IR. It was also great to go back to looking out of the window after not seeing anything for 6-7 weeks!! I actually quite enjoyed my CPL after the IR, but it really would have been a drag doing 25hrs, honestly.
6:If like you I was starting in Jan I would without doubt do my IR first, and hope for the better weather in late Feb / early March, knowing I only needed 15hrs of good VFR which can still take a while even in Summer. Mine took 3.5 weeks in May / June!!
Hope that helps you, I feel that is an honest accurate account of my experience. Dont get too mentally tied up in the difficulty of the IR, it is hard no question, but I found most of my fear was due to a lack of knowledge of what was involved, once you have done each section in the sim, all you have to do is put it all together. It isn't as bad as you maybe think it is, trust me!!
Cheers
Dan
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Dan,
The only thing I'd add would be that doing the multi rating before starting IR might be an advantage. Im finding myself having to put too much effort into flying the aeroplane at the moment, which detracts from concentrating on the IFR stuff. If I was more confident with the aeroplane then things would be much better. Learning multi at the same time as IR is hard going, hopefuly it will get easier though. Once I can rattle of all the checks and drills without having to think about them then i might crack things. Its a steap learning curve, that just get steeper every day!
The only thing I'd add would be that doing the multi rating before starting IR might be an advantage. Im finding myself having to put too much effort into flying the aeroplane at the moment, which detracts from concentrating on the IFR stuff. If I was more confident with the aeroplane then things would be much better. Learning multi at the same time as IR is hard going, hopefuly it will get easier though. Once I can rattle of all the checks and drills without having to think about them then i might crack things. Its a steap learning curve, that just get steeper every day!
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MikeCR / Airbus38,
I did my Multi first, forgot to say that, about 6hrs and I to felt like it was a massive learning curve with things happening very fast, 2 engines to worry about, MAP & RPM etc..... But suddenly it does get easier. I always remember trying to do my fist circuit on my PPL in a C152 trying to get all the checks in, brain overload I seem to remember, then suddenly it just came.
I found learning the checklist on my Multi really helped, I would also sit in the sim doing touch drills when it was not in use, it really freed up capacity letting me concentrate on flying the plane, rather than trying to remember the checklist!!
The simple truth is that it is a steep learning curve who ever you are, I still stand though that 25hrs of VFR Nav Ex's won't really make it any easier (in my opinion). Hard work, knowing the check list of pat, more hard work, it will all come together...
Cheers
Dan
I did my Multi first, forgot to say that, about 6hrs and I to felt like it was a massive learning curve with things happening very fast, 2 engines to worry about, MAP & RPM etc..... But suddenly it does get easier. I always remember trying to do my fist circuit on my PPL in a C152 trying to get all the checks in, brain overload I seem to remember, then suddenly it just came.
I found learning the checklist on my Multi really helped, I would also sit in the sim doing touch drills when it was not in use, it really freed up capacity letting me concentrate on flying the plane, rather than trying to remember the checklist!!
The simple truth is that it is a steep learning curve who ever you are, I still stand though that 25hrs of VFR Nav Ex's won't really make it any easier (in my opinion). Hard work, knowing the check list of pat, more hard work, it will all come together...
Cheers
Dan