Goodyear Arizona OAT on the cheap?
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I doubt Microfilter or anyone else for that matter has to be 'unshaved' in order to praise the FAA. Perhaps what he's trying to say indirectly is that OAT is not the datum and nor should it's input into aviation be nullifed. OAT and every other FTO has a vital contribution and sharing of experiences in terms of training BUT it doesn't have the exclusive interpretation it thinks it has. This untouchable attitude is what lies at the heart of many of OAT's problem, therefore most of which are self made and imposed on themselves.
But OAT like all companies in the world must bow before the most fundamental building block of commerce ... Cost. In doing so OAT realise that they can save a bundle if they 'outsource' their training overseas while the stduent saves some the lion's share of savings benefits OAT. The syllabus maybe JAA but quite frankly how can you insulate against the so called dreadful standards of the FAA, they'll talk to their controllers, mix in the same airspace as all those Americans, etc, etc..... If a young boy followed a private school's syllabus but attended a city academy the outcome would be diluted to say the least. You can't cover it up and state that the syllabus is JAA, then where is the support structure to help guide and at times dictate that mode of learning. It appears to be a marketed image of hours building in the States. Also what's so special about hours building the JAA way, if it were that vital to aviation learning it would be part of the licences or ratings syllabi. Experience is what it's all about and that's something that's vital in all walks of life. Maybe OAT students are so far removed from the exposure of practical flying that the day they make a genuine mistake they'll be little or no instinct to get them out of the mess. Whereas experience (the art of getting it wrong and learning how not to repeat it again) is what they desperately need to learn.
Silly world of OAT (it doesn't have to be that way but for some reason they are obsessed with being the centre of the univerise, though they don't realise their univerise barely extends past Oxford High Street).
But OAT like all companies in the world must bow before the most fundamental building block of commerce ... Cost. In doing so OAT realise that they can save a bundle if they 'outsource' their training overseas while the stduent saves some the lion's share of savings benefits OAT. The syllabus maybe JAA but quite frankly how can you insulate against the so called dreadful standards of the FAA, they'll talk to their controllers, mix in the same airspace as all those Americans, etc, etc..... If a young boy followed a private school's syllabus but attended a city academy the outcome would be diluted to say the least. You can't cover it up and state that the syllabus is JAA, then where is the support structure to help guide and at times dictate that mode of learning. It appears to be a marketed image of hours building in the States. Also what's so special about hours building the JAA way, if it were that vital to aviation learning it would be part of the licences or ratings syllabi. Experience is what it's all about and that's something that's vital in all walks of life. Maybe OAT students are so far removed from the exposure of practical flying that the day they make a genuine mistake they'll be little or no instinct to get them out of the mess. Whereas experience (the art of getting it wrong and learning how not to repeat it again) is what they desperately need to learn.
Silly world of OAT (it doesn't have to be that way but for some reason they are obsessed with being the centre of the univerise, though they don't realise their univerise barely extends past Oxford High Street).
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I wish to say a big ‘here here’ to Drap-Air. Well said.
Porridge, you are entirely out of order in your assumption that all OAT students are wan***s and quite frankly, the statement you made actually portrays you as the wan***
I have recently returned from Scottsdale, and agree with what has been said previously. It is a great place to have some fun, and I personally think that training in the extremely high density traffic of Scottsdale is a huge benefit to any trainee pilot for developing confidence and general awareness of ones surroundings at all times.
I flew to Goodyear on several occasions and can see no problems for future students who will be spending a few months there. I am sure you will enjoy your time and get the most from the facilities.
And boogie-nicey, You might like to use 'the art of getting it wrong and learning how not to repeat it again' but some of us prefer to get it right in the first place and spot where things could potentially go wrong. And the fact that this thread is even here proves your last comment wrong.
Porridge, you are entirely out of order in your assumption that all OAT students are wan***s and quite frankly, the statement you made actually portrays you as the wan***
I have recently returned from Scottsdale, and agree with what has been said previously. It is a great place to have some fun, and I personally think that training in the extremely high density traffic of Scottsdale is a huge benefit to any trainee pilot for developing confidence and general awareness of ones surroundings at all times.
I flew to Goodyear on several occasions and can see no problems for future students who will be spending a few months there. I am sure you will enjoy your time and get the most from the facilities.
And boogie-nicey, You might like to use 'the art of getting it wrong and learning how not to repeat it again' but some of us prefer to get it right in the first place and spot where things could potentially go wrong. And the fact that this thread is even here proves your last comment wrong.
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Experience is built on getting it wrong that's human nature and it's dangerous to think that a syllabus (though primary) in training is the only thing. How many times have you learnt how to do some General Nav question after getting it wrong and then looking very deeply at it and slowly come to the light of realisation. This is what I mean when I refer to it in terms of flight training. Other FTOs also teach the course right first time but they still do and always will bank on experience to help weed out the mistakes/problems that creep out. How can a course teach you every eventuality, no instruction will ever prepare you for fear or stress. They can only do so much to simulate those conditions but you'll act differently when rehersing your lines because you know full well there's no one there but on stage during the opening night it's a different kettle of fish.
I am not having a gripe with OAT exclusively only where stupidity and arrogance rears it's head
I am not having a gripe with OAT exclusively only where stupidity and arrogance rears it's head
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I agree that Humans inherently get things wrong and learn from them, however I don’t like your seemingly blasé attitude towards it. ‘Getting things wrong’ in aviation can and has on many occasions, prove fatal. Being taught the correct way of doing things first time round, and noting when problems might arise is how tragedies can be avoided. You seem to be suggesting that getting something wrong and mitigating is an appropriate method of learning; I however think that at the very latest problems should be trapped before mitigation is necessary. Even during the learning process. And the experience you talk about comes about from trapping problems and in future you can avoid the same problems before they even develop.
I really don’t think ground school questions can be related, you can simply put down the book and think about it. In the air it is far far different. Im sure you can appreciate.
I really don’t think ground school questions can be related, you can simply put down the book and think about it. In the air it is far far different. Im sure you can appreciate.
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Boogie is right in that in this game, money will inevitably decide who gets the majority of airline positions. I think lots of people probably despise that fact- there is no doubting that OAT integrated guys get jobs- come on, we just can't doubt it. This does not mean they are the best people for the job- it's just convenient- much in the same way that Dixons is more expensive but has poor choice- OAT makes a product- and that is acceptable to an airline. The cost obviously puts off those who can't afford it and therefore some of the best may never be given the chance. WHen cadets were around you could feel that these were some of the top boys for the job- more hours of groundschool etc- now its pretty much pay the 70 big ones and you have a cracking chance to get an airline job. The world is a cruel cruel place....if you're really bothered.
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there is no doubting that OAT integrated guys get jobs
I suppose alternatively one could ask - how much would a modular guy have to spend to attend events and network in order to obtain the same range of contacts as OAT themselves. If the answer is greater than what one would pay OAT, then one could say you've made a poor choice.
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Old gregg; My friend you seem to be taken my comments and stretched the elastic too far.
I am simply saying that we need the best possible standard of course teaching, flying instruction and that arms the student to
(i) Best handle as many situations as possible
(ii) In the most effective manner possible.
I'm not as you seem to be implying that we just read a couple of books and just try and figure it out like some brain dead looser. In aviation I have one thing that's always in the back of my mind, there is no high nor low standard only THE STANDARD.
Please no need to start disecting my approach to flying, there's really no need for that, thank you.
I am simply saying that we need the best possible standard of course teaching, flying instruction and that arms the student to
(i) Best handle as many situations as possible
(ii) In the most effective manner possible.
I'm not as you seem to be implying that we just read a couple of books and just try and figure it out like some brain dead looser. In aviation I have one thing that's always in the back of my mind, there is no high nor low standard only THE STANDARD.
Please no need to start disecting my approach to flying, there's really no need for that, thank you.
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Boogie is right again- everything in the UK is of a terribly low standard anyway so why should we expect anything better from flying organisations. It's funny in Britain you get absolutely lambasted for trying to make things BETTER- unbelievable. Profit motive all the way and a nation in fear of criticising anything. Glad I'm getting out of this wide-screen TV, microwaved meal, McDonald's, SUV and 'my dad's bigger than your dad culture'. I expected better from you northerners out there... 
Perhaps i should do some more actualy research- whatever that means....
Perhaps i should do some more actualy research- whatever that means....
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sounds like A320driver, or rider, whatever it was, has learnt english properly and is back for a bit of a windup.
micro - you can't be serious about everything you've said.
you've either been turned down by OAT and can't take it or you're just here to start an argument.
seems that way to me anyway.
micro - you can't be serious about everything you've said.
you've either been turned down by OAT and can't take it or you're just here to start an argument.
seems that way to me anyway.
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It's funny in Britain you get absolutely lambasted for trying to make things BETTER- unbelievable. Profit motive all the way and a nation in fear of criticising anything
Quite interesting that you have no understanding of economics, yet comment endlessly on the shortcomings of today's market.
I couldn't care less what you think is off topic until Scroggs tells me so - other than that I will engage my brain to argue where I believe someone is uninformed or talking rubbbish.
Last edited by Lucifer; 8th Jul 2006 at 03:46.
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Flight Training
You are always judged firstly on your appearance! Look smart, fly smart! It's as simple as that. People who care about their appearance generally care about most things including the quality of their flying. Those who've rushed to a lesson with inadequate time to shave and shower etc., will probably be equally unprepared for the flight to come with the obvious expensive consequences. Those students who complain about their appearance being criticised would not dream of attending an interview at British Airways (or any airline) unkempt and I doubt whether any airline Captain in that company would tolerate his First Officer in the same condition: Qoute from BA Flying Orders: The Captain should ensure that he and his crew always present a good personal appearance. Enough said?
As for OAT, CTC, Jerez etc., one thing all these schools have in common is a healthy wish to do the job well. Not all have the financial back-up which Oxford has but all are trying to produce the best pilots which are as much a function of the flying instructor as they are the school. Get a good instructor and the rest normally follows. OAT attracts no different wannabees than the other schools and it is rude and insulting to infer otherwise. OAT's investment at Goodyear has been enormous in both finance and interest from all the managers at Oxford right up to the MD and beyond.
As for jobs, OAT is the only school with a department dedicated to obtaining their graduates' positions. Not everyone will be immediately successful but this is more a function of suitability and attitude and frankly not the fault of the training organisation. There has never been a better time to get into this industry but make sure you pack your razor blade!
As for OAT, CTC, Jerez etc., one thing all these schools have in common is a healthy wish to do the job well. Not all have the financial back-up which Oxford has but all are trying to produce the best pilots which are as much a function of the flying instructor as they are the school. Get a good instructor and the rest normally follows. OAT attracts no different wannabees than the other schools and it is rude and insulting to infer otherwise. OAT's investment at Goodyear has been enormous in both finance and interest from all the managers at Oxford right up to the MD and beyond.
As for jobs, OAT is the only school with a department dedicated to obtaining their graduates' positions. Not everyone will be immediately successful but this is more a function of suitability and attitude and frankly not the fault of the training organisation. There has never been a better time to get into this industry but make sure you pack your razor blade!
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Caution: OAT Goodyear
It is regrettable to say that the flight training advertised by OAT is not being fulfilled. The courses at Goodyear, OATs Fair Weather Base, are not receiving intensive flight training. The main problems are:
-Aircraft are poorly maintained, and frequently go unserviceable. Oxford employed instructors have openly said that aircraft are unsafe.
-Scheduling: Students are scheduled for flights in aircraft that are not suitable for the lesson. I.e. not suitable for night flight, or instrument flights.
-Management: Flight instruction is excellent, but there is a lack of leadership to implement strategies and plans for the general running of the base.
-Morale: Students are frustrated and few attempts have been made by Oxford to improve living conditions. Building work is yet to be completed, the accommodation exterior smells of sewage. Showers are unhygienic and dangerous. This is completely unsatisfactory when students pay £800 a month to live in the accommodation. Both students and flight instructors are perturbed with scheduling and serviceability issues.
-Lack of communication: There is little communication between staff and students (rumours run rife). Again no apparent communication between management and other sections, i.e dispatch, customer services.
-Weather: At the moment only a few flights are able to be achieved a day, due to the prevailing weather conditions. FAA instructors will not fly above 40’C(due to insurance reasons) and severe thunderstorms have cancelled many Navigation flights.
In summary, the fair weather base at Goodyear is not fully operational and there appears to be slow progress in making it so.
Would be interesting to hear other students’ views that are training at Goodyear.
-Aircraft are poorly maintained, and frequently go unserviceable. Oxford employed instructors have openly said that aircraft are unsafe.
-Scheduling: Students are scheduled for flights in aircraft that are not suitable for the lesson. I.e. not suitable for night flight, or instrument flights.
-Management: Flight instruction is excellent, but there is a lack of leadership to implement strategies and plans for the general running of the base.
-Morale: Students are frustrated and few attempts have been made by Oxford to improve living conditions. Building work is yet to be completed, the accommodation exterior smells of sewage. Showers are unhygienic and dangerous. This is completely unsatisfactory when students pay £800 a month to live in the accommodation. Both students and flight instructors are perturbed with scheduling and serviceability issues.
-Lack of communication: There is little communication between staff and students (rumours run rife). Again no apparent communication between management and other sections, i.e dispatch, customer services.
-Weather: At the moment only a few flights are able to be achieved a day, due to the prevailing weather conditions. FAA instructors will not fly above 40’C(due to insurance reasons) and severe thunderstorms have cancelled many Navigation flights.
In summary, the fair weather base at Goodyear is not fully operational and there appears to be slow progress in making it so.
Would be interesting to hear other students’ views that are training at Goodyear.
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FAA instructors will not fly above 40’C(due to insurance reasons)
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Some of these things have been raised before, and some have been refuted.
Would help your cause if you backed things up a bit. Are you an OAT student past or present? (you're based in London so I guess not) Where are you getting this info from, or are you just trying to stir something up out of nothing?
Would help us all, and the future of this discussion, if there was some evidence or experience behind your statements.
Would help your cause if you backed things up a bit. Are you an OAT student past or present? (you're based in London so I guess not) Where are you getting this info from, or are you just trying to stir something up out of nothing?
Would help us all, and the future of this discussion, if there was some evidence or experience behind your statements.
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I pointed out to OAT (at SDL), two years ago, that the "Arrows" (that I flew) had performance graphs that reached only 40°. So, no performance data was available for flights departing in the summer afternoons.
They promised me that conversations with Piper concluded that the graph was not a limiting factor.
They promised me that conversations with Piper concluded that the graph was not a limiting factor.
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So what you are saying, in effect, Keygrip, is that:
1) OAT has a management setup which is flexible enough to change their mind,
and
2) professional enough not to operate outside the graph.
Sounds like a good company to me. Not one which is cutting corners.
1) OAT has a management setup which is flexible enough to change their mind,
and
2) professional enough not to operate outside the graph.
Sounds like a good company to me. Not one which is cutting corners.
They promised me that conversations with Piper concluded that the graph was not a limiting factor.
Keygrip - Not to put too fine a point on it, if you chose to accept the assurances of OAT over the Arrow POH, you deserve everything that you get (or lose)!!
