Oxford Air Training
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep, me. The scheme has done exactly what it said on the tin. I had no issues with how i was treated during all phases of my training, got through all my sim training 1st time, no extra flights. Line check passed with no problems and sitting quite happily as a permanent employee. Never had any problems with instructors offering criticism (which WILL come), review it and use it. Its being given to make you a better pilot (Whether 250hr cadet or million hour capitano extraordinaire).
If you can get onto something like the CTC Wings scheme which is coming bundled with a job placement at the end then take it. It will likely cut your job hunting down to zero and help you shortcut your way into a larger airline.
BUT. Most who apply don't get selected. Some of those selected don't pass and some that pass get chopped at line training. So its no golden ticket.
In all likelihood you will find yourself needing to pay for your own training at a school of your own choice. Then job hunting like everybody else.
You may choose Modular or Integrated. There are pros and cons and they are discussed elsewhere on these forums.
Personally I recommend going Modular as you have access to the best training providers this way. Also it is more flexible and nearly always cheaper.
I would far rather train at a school with say 4 aircraft and 5 career instructors based at somewhere like Bournemouth. Compared to training at somewhere with 25 aircraft and 50 instructors based at somewhere like Kiddlington, Jerez or Cranfield.
You are far more likely to benefit from instructor continuity, the same airframe, aircraft availability is usually better and frankly your are more of a customer and less of a number.
As for groundschool you are best off nailing most of that through distance learning and brush up courses whilst still employed in your current job.
In all I wouldn't spend more than £40k on all my training. I wouldn't give up my day job until I had the PPL and ATPL exams complete or very nearly complete. I wouldn't take more than 5 months to complete the CPL and ME and IR and MCC. I would then apply to airlines for 3 months and if no job arose I would spend £4.5k on an FI rating as there are quite a few jobs around at the moment.
Don't for one second think anyone is impressed by where you trained. Its the same teaching - all that varies are the charges and the hassles.
Good luck,
WWW
BUT. Most who apply don't get selected. Some of those selected don't pass and some that pass get chopped at line training. So its no golden ticket.
In all likelihood you will find yourself needing to pay for your own training at a school of your own choice. Then job hunting like everybody else.
You may choose Modular or Integrated. There are pros and cons and they are discussed elsewhere on these forums.
Personally I recommend going Modular as you have access to the best training providers this way. Also it is more flexible and nearly always cheaper.
I would far rather train at a school with say 4 aircraft and 5 career instructors based at somewhere like Bournemouth. Compared to training at somewhere with 25 aircraft and 50 instructors based at somewhere like Kiddlington, Jerez or Cranfield.
You are far more likely to benefit from instructor continuity, the same airframe, aircraft availability is usually better and frankly your are more of a customer and less of a number.
As for groundschool you are best off nailing most of that through distance learning and brush up courses whilst still employed in your current job.
In all I wouldn't spend more than £40k on all my training. I wouldn't give up my day job until I had the PPL and ATPL exams complete or very nearly complete. I wouldn't take more than 5 months to complete the CPL and ME and IR and MCC. I would then apply to airlines for 3 months and if no job arose I would spend £4.5k on an FI rating as there are quite a few jobs around at the moment.
Don't for one second think anyone is impressed by where you trained. Its the same teaching - all that varies are the charges and the hassles.
Good luck,
WWW
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brighton
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They both have pro's and cons, but dont be fooled by people telling you about the 100 % employment rate at Oxford. I konow two guys who graduated from the integrated scheme, still no work after a year. Also BA take people from anywhere, ( I should know, self improver modular myself, from neither CTC or Oxf ). At the moment it's a great time to be looking for a job, where do you want to work ? If it's Easyjet or Monarch go to CTC, Britania/Thomson also like them ( school owned by some ex-Britania people ) Oxford have links with Otherairlines, and if you want Ryanair - you must be mad.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CTC needs to watch their a.... Many have had enough of the B.S, and for those looking to join the indusrtry- do the sums- it does not add up.
Investment vs. reward = bum deal
However, with the shortage of experienced pilots (4000+ jet) might mean that wages/ T+C's head north, god willing. They need to.
Investment vs. reward = bum deal
However, with the shortage of experienced pilots (4000+ jet) might mean that wages/ T+C's head north, god willing. They need to.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dubai / UAE
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having read this thread with some interest, I thought the view of a current CTC cadet would put a few things straight. I am out in New Zealand doing my training with CTC, and really felt that, while no company is perfect, no company sails on blissfully devoid of problems, complaints or pitfalls, I have been blown away by what CTC are doing and are aiming to do.
Before you read the rest of this, believe me, I am a pessimist and am not trusting by nature. I am not someone easily impressed by company schpiel or propaganda. I didn’t trust the CTC scheme and wasted time trying to do it all alone. If I could go back and change that, I would! I would have gone straight after the CTC scheme with what I know now! I feel I cheated myself out of a years head-start by being too sceptical and searching out other options and methods. Oh well.
The entrance standards are astronomically high, and it is correct that only 2% get through the CTC selection (it currently sits at 2.3%, for those who care). Once out here in NZ, the pace is solid-fuel-rocket fast!
As for the standard of training, I would expect everyone to be able to find niggles or picky subjects to debate over, but at the end of the day, CTC are in a position of strength, they have a very good reputation and from actually being around and knowing the CTC cadets at present, they are an excellent bunch of extremely talented guys and gals who will ALL make excellent pilots.
So far, there is no lacking or deficiency in any of the training offered, and I really don’t have any reason or evidence to suggest that this standard will deteriorate come Simulator training back in the UK. I talked to a whole host of the guys in Bournemouth doing their Simulator training, and they were pushed hard, but comfortable and eager.
As a kind of a side note, CTC have demonstrated over and over again their commitment to their cadets! The CEO himself flies out regularly to NZ and literally sits with us all and talks to us about any problem we may have. No kidding! He actually sits with us and it is open forum all the way!
CTC have spared no expense on the training and well being of their cadets. I only hope more of you guys and gals out there may get the chance to experience it! the investment in NZ and the UK is simply staggering!
Personally, I feel that if CTC is being labelled as ‘cocky’ or ‘arrogant’, perhaps this is borne of a combination of jealousy and envy concerning their strong market position. But hey, if time proves that CTC is carrying on too big for their boots, then so be it. But for now and the foreseeable future, I really do think that CTC have got it spot on.
Need proof? Ok, without giving too much away, I have not been in the CTC scheme for too long at this point, but, I already have been assigned an airline and am heading or interview really soon! I said I was blown away, and I meant it. CTC have as-good-as placed me already. And many others too.
I found it amazing that the cadets here in NZ were sitting around happily comparing their respective airlines in such sensible tones as you would expect someone to talk about an office project! This is the CTC standard – we are grateful for the placement with the airline, but at CTC, lol, its what we have come to expect! And I am pretty sure that the tendency to run CTC down is in no small part due to the fact that they have set a benchmark that few others can attain. Does OAT do better at this game? I don’t know to be fair.
When CTC have me in the right hand seat of one of the latest aircraft in 18 months, and I didn’t have to dig up my great grandfather to pay for it, will I care which training organisation has the best 'reputation'? Hmmm. Will I care what the pass rate was? Is? Which organisation helps the most after training? Well, CTC don’t need to offer help after the event, because it is addressed DURING the training. I have an airline already, as do a number of others! Trust me, it is a huge weight off the mind.
So, please feel free to bombard me with CTC-related questions. Are they perfect? No. Are they better than OAT? Dunno, to be honest. But should we care which of the two we get into? Not really. We are all aiming for the skies, so does it matter how we get there?
I preferred the certainty and honesty of the guys and gals at CTC. I prefer the idea of being given an airline rather than go hunt for it later. I prefer the loan guarantee with CTC and I don’t mind that the training is paid for later on over 7 years. Christ! I remember in my naiive youth writing to BA and a handful of other airlines doing my best to offer to pay for my training out of my salary over the next 15 years if they would just train and employ me NOW! Lol. How things change! Now that’s EXACTLY what is happening!
It is true that CTC look after their own, and of course they are proud and protective of their cadets. CTC does have a real family feel about it!
Look forward to more comments and questions!
Superjet
Before you read the rest of this, believe me, I am a pessimist and am not trusting by nature. I am not someone easily impressed by company schpiel or propaganda. I didn’t trust the CTC scheme and wasted time trying to do it all alone. If I could go back and change that, I would! I would have gone straight after the CTC scheme with what I know now! I feel I cheated myself out of a years head-start by being too sceptical and searching out other options and methods. Oh well.
The entrance standards are astronomically high, and it is correct that only 2% get through the CTC selection (it currently sits at 2.3%, for those who care). Once out here in NZ, the pace is solid-fuel-rocket fast!
As for the standard of training, I would expect everyone to be able to find niggles or picky subjects to debate over, but at the end of the day, CTC are in a position of strength, they have a very good reputation and from actually being around and knowing the CTC cadets at present, they are an excellent bunch of extremely talented guys and gals who will ALL make excellent pilots.
So far, there is no lacking or deficiency in any of the training offered, and I really don’t have any reason or evidence to suggest that this standard will deteriorate come Simulator training back in the UK. I talked to a whole host of the guys in Bournemouth doing their Simulator training, and they were pushed hard, but comfortable and eager.
As a kind of a side note, CTC have demonstrated over and over again their commitment to their cadets! The CEO himself flies out regularly to NZ and literally sits with us all and talks to us about any problem we may have. No kidding! He actually sits with us and it is open forum all the way!
CTC have spared no expense on the training and well being of their cadets. I only hope more of you guys and gals out there may get the chance to experience it! the investment in NZ and the UK is simply staggering!
Personally, I feel that if CTC is being labelled as ‘cocky’ or ‘arrogant’, perhaps this is borne of a combination of jealousy and envy concerning their strong market position. But hey, if time proves that CTC is carrying on too big for their boots, then so be it. But for now and the foreseeable future, I really do think that CTC have got it spot on.
Need proof? Ok, without giving too much away, I have not been in the CTC scheme for too long at this point, but, I already have been assigned an airline and am heading or interview really soon! I said I was blown away, and I meant it. CTC have as-good-as placed me already. And many others too.
I found it amazing that the cadets here in NZ were sitting around happily comparing their respective airlines in such sensible tones as you would expect someone to talk about an office project! This is the CTC standard – we are grateful for the placement with the airline, but at CTC, lol, its what we have come to expect! And I am pretty sure that the tendency to run CTC down is in no small part due to the fact that they have set a benchmark that few others can attain. Does OAT do better at this game? I don’t know to be fair.
When CTC have me in the right hand seat of one of the latest aircraft in 18 months, and I didn’t have to dig up my great grandfather to pay for it, will I care which training organisation has the best 'reputation'? Hmmm. Will I care what the pass rate was? Is? Which organisation helps the most after training? Well, CTC don’t need to offer help after the event, because it is addressed DURING the training. I have an airline already, as do a number of others! Trust me, it is a huge weight off the mind.
So, please feel free to bombard me with CTC-related questions. Are they perfect? No. Are they better than OAT? Dunno, to be honest. But should we care which of the two we get into? Not really. We are all aiming for the skies, so does it matter how we get there?
I preferred the certainty and honesty of the guys and gals at CTC. I prefer the idea of being given an airline rather than go hunt for it later. I prefer the loan guarantee with CTC and I don’t mind that the training is paid for later on over 7 years. Christ! I remember in my naiive youth writing to BA and a handful of other airlines doing my best to offer to pay for my training out of my salary over the next 15 years if they would just train and employ me NOW! Lol. How things change! Now that’s EXACTLY what is happening!
It is true that CTC look after their own, and of course they are proud and protective of their cadets. CTC does have a real family feel about it!
Look forward to more comments and questions!
Superjet
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yeah, nice one Rod...
erm... no gals out here.
when you get to fly.
fair enough, he does and is a thoroughly nice chap.
agreed.
Nothing EVER comes with that guarantee. CTC seem to be pretty good though.
they are an excellent bunch of extremely talented guys and gals
pace is solid-fuel-rocket fast
The CEO himself flies out regularly to NZ and literally sits with us all and talks to us about any problem we may have
Many have had enough of the B.S
If you can get onto something like the CTC Wings scheme which is coming bundled with a job placement at the end then take it
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OAT and CTC are both excellent schools. Cabair and FTE are also. However, they rely for their continued existence on the money you pay them for their services. To convince you to buy what they have to offer, they will all tell you more or less what you want to hear - which is that their training is the best, and that their students get the best jobs with the biggest airlines, and that you have more chance of getting a job after their training than anyone else's.
Well, they can't all be right. And, if you believed even half of what these four schools say, no-one who trained anywhere else would ever be employed by anyone. Patently, this is not the case. In fact, I'd guess that these four schools together probably don't provide more than 50% of fATPL recruits for UK airlines (though I don't have figures). So don't go thinking you have to go to OAT, CTC, FTE or Cabair to have any chance of getting a job.
Equally, whichever school you elect to give your business to, don't go in with the attitude that you are 'lucky' to be there, or that you owe them anything. YOU ARE THE CUTOMER!! Don't forget that. If they treat you like sh*t, tell them where to get off. Not rudely or aggressively, but remind them who's paying - and paying heavily. It's not the school, or an airline, it's you. If things aren't right, get them changed.
Scroggs
Well, they can't all be right. And, if you believed even half of what these four schools say, no-one who trained anywhere else would ever be employed by anyone. Patently, this is not the case. In fact, I'd guess that these four schools together probably don't provide more than 50% of fATPL recruits for UK airlines (though I don't have figures). So don't go thinking you have to go to OAT, CTC, FTE or Cabair to have any chance of getting a job.
Equally, whichever school you elect to give your business to, don't go in with the attitude that you are 'lucky' to be there, or that you owe them anything. YOU ARE THE CUTOMER!! Don't forget that. If they treat you like sh*t, tell them where to get off. Not rudely or aggressively, but remind them who's paying - and paying heavily. It's not the school, or an airline, it's you. If things aren't right, get them changed.
Scroggs
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Superjet
Good to hear you are enjoying it. I hope it works out and you get to fly with a decent employer, on decent money, and a final salary pension. You most likely deserve it.
One word of warning- when you get to said airline- listen and listen and learn, as well as enjoy.
Good to hear you are enjoying it. I hope it works out and you get to fly with a decent employer, on decent money, and a final salary pension. You most likely deserve it.
One word of warning- when you get to said airline- listen and listen and learn, as well as enjoy.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: EU
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having met a few 'wings cadets' I would have to say I'm generally impressed by their attitude (with the odd exception). By the time they get to type rating training though, they do seem a little worn down by the system. Unfortunately the type ratings provided by CTC can only be descibed as 'minimum standard'. Groundschool instruction is virtually non-existent with the preferred method being CBT which was probably relevant in 1970 but bears little relation to what candidates are examined on. Ground instruction varies from good to rubbish. Sim instruction is the same. Pure luck dictates how good your sim course will be with instruction varying widely from excellent (provided by some of the industry's best) to appawling (often from the those who passed their sell-by date before crm was invented). There is a lack of standardisation and little will to address this issue. Having completed a fair few type rating courses in my time I can honestly say that CTC is unquestionably the worst training establishment I have dealt with. Sad really as there are some very good instructors but its always the bad bits we remember most!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: EU
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no I havn't failed a CTC course and I never worked for them nor would I want to but I have been through their type rating system. Unfortunately the cadet and TRSS/self sponsorsed guys have little to compare it to. I have lots to compare it to.
Last edited by omoko joe; 3rd Sep 2005 at 12:45.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dubai / UAE
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just thought another tid-bit of info might help,
Having asked around the CTC warehouses of information, it seems a little of the 'low-grade' performance of CTC cadets at line training level is simply a human factor
Apparently a lot of cadets from CTC, having been through the hard times of the courses leading up to the line training, then sit back with the attitude of "Phew! Now I have made it" and back off the pace a little, only to be stung by their own complacency in ceratin areas.
Just what I have heard mind...
SJ
Having asked around the CTC warehouses of information, it seems a little of the 'low-grade' performance of CTC cadets at line training level is simply a human factor
Apparently a lot of cadets from CTC, having been through the hard times of the courses leading up to the line training, then sit back with the attitude of "Phew! Now I have made it" and back off the pace a little, only to be stung by their own complacency in ceratin areas.
Just what I have heard mind...
SJ
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: England
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Haha (nice name) You said that there are no 'gals' out in New Zealand...are you actually out there? And how true is that statement if you are? Surely there must be some out there on courses?
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: EU
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmm, very true his statement is…
I imagine when he says “no girls out here”, he is out there.
I can confirm there are no girls in NZ (well, there are a few locals but I wouldn’t if I were you..) and if memory serves, there have only ever been two in CTC. Rumour is rife of two about to join.. the air must be heavy with testosterone..
Show yourself SuperJet! And hand in your Meet&Greet propaganda pamphlets; they’re messing with your brain
E.
I imagine when he says “no girls out here”, he is out there.
I can confirm there are no girls in NZ (well, there are a few locals but I wouldn’t if I were you..) and if memory serves, there have only ever been two in CTC. Rumour is rife of two about to join.. the air must be heavy with testosterone..
Show yourself SuperJet! And hand in your Meet&Greet propaganda pamphlets; they’re messing with your brain
E.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Kent
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oxford Aviation
I am seriously considering civil avaiation as a career and have been looking into the Airline Preparation Programme at Oxford Aviation Training. However someone told me that they have had staff leaving recently for one reason or another.
Can anyone possibly enlighten me further? I'm going to one of their APP seminars in November, should I mention it then?
Thanks very much
Can anyone possibly enlighten me further? I'm going to one of their APP seminars in November, should I mention it then?
Thanks very much
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Surrey
Age: 43
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ask them any questions you want answers for, thats the point of seminars. Just look around all the schools that you like the look of and go where your gut tells you 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
many leave bcoz of how the management treat them/the students. I know alot of the ground instructors who left, if they are anything to go by the rest will be excellent.
but be carefull, the are many horror storys abt OAT... mostly the flying
but be carefull, the are many horror storys abt OAT... mostly the flying