Pilot Training College, Waterford, Ireland
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As a student at PTC I disagree with some of what is said here. I have often questioned an instructor in the aircraft, on the way to an aircraft or in the corridor on little questions that I may have and I dont recall being ever charged for their answers. Yes their prices are extreme but this is Ireland and the staff need to be paid like everyone else.As a mature student I understand the ways of buisness and how hard it is to make ends meet in this greedy country, so why should PTC be any different. The level of instruction I have recieved is top class and I have had many instructors in my time at different schools.
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Fullrich
there is no Question over the standards of Instruction at PTC, that is not the issue. The issue is (a) price of groundschool....(b) the method of piecemeal charging for groundschool, I have seen a students account and its nothing short of disgraceful (c) false advertising......the school is actively pursuing students with incorrect pricing info advertised on their website.
Ireland is not a greedy country by the way, some people in it are!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and only because people allow them to be. How many times have you heard members of the Govt in Ireland tell people not to accept "Rip off Pricing" and to shop around and do something about the rip off merchants.
I am not a student and have no need for the services of this or any similar institution any more. But I will stick my finger in the eye of those who screw money in a sneaky way from the ranks of Pilot hopefuls. If you want to charge it, put it in your prospectus clearly, so that the student will be able to make a proper and informed financial plan.
I wish the PTC well, but if its management peruse this site, be fair and ethical, be a Training Institution, not a bunch of pick pockets. In the long run, a professional and ethical reputation will pay better than a quick buck.....whatever the bean counters might say!
Ireland is not a greedy country by the way, some people in it are!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and only because people allow them to be. How many times have you heard members of the Govt in Ireland tell people not to accept "Rip off Pricing" and to shop around and do something about the rip off merchants.
I am not a student and have no need for the services of this or any similar institution any more. But I will stick my finger in the eye of those who screw money in a sneaky way from the ranks of Pilot hopefuls. If you want to charge it, put it in your prospectus clearly, so that the student will be able to make a proper and informed financial plan.
I wish the PTC well, but if its management peruse this site, be fair and ethical, be a Training Institution, not a bunch of pick pockets. In the long run, a professional and ethical reputation will pay better than a quick buck.....whatever the bean counters might say!
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Approach the boss at the school and request that he honour the prices that he advertised. If he refuses you should contact the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs in Dublin. The role of ODCA is to give information and guidance to consumers on their statutory rights.
Their Phone number is 1890 220 229.
You probably will not get your money back but you might persuade the organisation to correct its advertisments or provide their services at the previous price as a gesture of goodwill.
At the end of the day if you still aren't happy, learn your lessons, know your rights, don't go back.
Good Luck
Their Phone number is 1890 220 229.
You probably will not get your money back but you might persuade the organisation to correct its advertisments or provide their services at the previous price as a gesture of goodwill.
At the end of the day if you still aren't happy, learn your lessons, know your rights, don't go back.
Good Luck
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Fair Trading
Thanks Nibog,
As I am not a student it may be useful to those who are and those affected. The price list on the website is still not correct............so beware.
P
As I am not a student it may be useful to those who are and those affected. The price list on the website is still not correct............so beware.
P
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Reply to PPrune criticisms of PTC – 1st May 2006.
In response to recent claims made on this forum I would like to respond as follows. My comments are based on my interpretations of the various claims made on this forum and are entirely without prejudice.
1. Re: person referring to themselves as “PigsFly” comments made on 27th April at 10:47 28th April at 08:54 and 29th April at 11:11.
Comment: Ground Briefing Charges raised at PTC from €20 to €40 per hour. These charges are not for Long Briefings but for “everytime an instructor is in your vicinity” and for “general Chats”
Response: These claims are factually incorrect. Ground School charges are for Ground School. Preflight briefings are not charged extra neither are any forms of “general chats”.
Generally we find that we have to conduct specific groundschool sessions on pertinent topics which students need to improve their knowledge on prior to being at a standard capable of obtaining a first time pass in their flight test. The time required varies with each student. We conduct group ground school lessons with students at the same level in order to minimize the cost to the individual. The rate for this is €30 per hour.
Comment: Management has adapted an aggressive charging regime.
Response: This is untrue. Management of PTC is of the highest caliber and conducts their business affairs on a fair and reasonable basis. There is no strategy in PTC to be aggressive in our Management methods.
Comment: PTC guarantees F/O positions.
Response: This is untrue. PTC does however guarantee an airline interview for graduates of PTC who reach a standard that we consider acceptable to the airlines we deal with. This explains why 98% of our graduates are in airline jobs.
Comment: PTC will follow its failed predecessor at Waterford.
Response: I don’t fully understand this comment. I was not aware that PTC had a predecessor at Waterford. Perhaps this refers to a training school which existed some time in the past.
Comment: Pickings to thin down in the South East of Ireland.
Response: PTC is operating at full capacity with students from all over Europe USA & Australia. I don’t think that the availability of students in the South East of Ireland is a significant Market driver towards the viability of PTC. As a JAA FTO we are addressing the market in the JAA jurisdiction and beyond for ICAO to JAA conversions.
Comment: Time frame required for groundschool gross understatement of what students will be billed for.
Response: Times in all aspects of Pilot training including those published by JAA are minimum times required. The actual time required will depend largely on the student, his/her abilities and the study time he / she is prepared to devote to theoretical knowledge learning outside the college. This scenario is not particular to PTC it is I generally accepted norm in the industry. The primary objective at PTC is that we will strive at all times to train to a standard whereby the student will obtain a first time pass in all his / her tests and exams and obtain quality employment in a reasonable timeframe.
Comment: PTC is involved in “piecemeal charging for Groundschool”
Response: This is untrue. All Flying Training Slots are pre-booked on our computerized reservation system. A schedule of these is given to the student at the outset. Training slots are carried out in accordance with this schedule or in accordance with necessary alterations depending on weather, student progress and many other factors. Charges are made only when the training slot is completed.
Comment: PTC is a “bunch of pickpockets”
Response: This claim is categorically untrue and unnecessarily damaging to an FTO whose employees are of the highest caliber in the industry and all of whom operate to the highest standards of integrity and honesty. I invite the claimant on behalf of our employees and Management to substantiate this statement.
2. Re: person referring to themselves as “Flybear” comments made on 27th April at 23:06 and 29th April 11:11.
Comment: PTC charge €60 per hour for ME/IR groundschool.
Response: This is correct. I believe that this is a reasonable rate per hour for senior instructors conducting ME / IR Groundschool. PTC pays instructors 50% of the hourly rate charged by the College to students. The balance goes towards overheads and towards further investment in developing the College. As part of our strategic development plan we are not taking any profits from the business in the first five years of operations. I have always believed that instructors should be paid as professionals for their very valuable work. My dentist charges me the equivalent of €150 per hour for consultation. His training and investment in his career is not any greater than that of a senior Flight and/or Groundschool instructor.
Comment: PTC is suffering from “Greed”
Response: While this may be the perception of some this claim could not be further from the truth. The costs associated with operating a business in any developed country these days are substantial. There are very few commercial enterprises in this industry that are in a position to be greedy…. Flying schools certainly not. If we were making excessive charges and cutting corners on our service level, quality of equipment or personal attention to our students I could understand such a claim being made but let me assure you this is not the case. I really think that before making such statements or using such words one should be better informed.
Comment: Groundschool is not good in PTC
Response: We are not perfect and we consistently strive to improve our standards. However I do believe that our instructors and the quality of our instruction is at a level which puts us at the forefront of the industry. If not why are the vast majority of our students obtaining first time passes and why are our graduates being employed in large numbers.
Comment: Instructors are made to do Groundschool by Management. They are “burning up time to keep management happy”
Response: This claim is untrue. The decision on a students need for groundschool is made by the instructor and / or the CFI. Nobody is forced to do Groundschool. Our instructors are of a caliber whereby I don’t think it would be possible to force them to do something that they considered incorrect or unnecessary. Our internal corporate culture is in fact the direct opposite whereby all employees are given latitude to express themselves and to carry out their duties at their own discretion within the scope of the Operations manual of the FTO.
Comment: Rumor that Accounts told Management that PTC was making money from Flying but not from Groundschool hence increases in charges.
Response: Our internal management structure does not lend itself to one division telling the other what to do. We regularly discuss issues and make decision accordingly. These discussions involve at least one person from each division of the College so up to 8 people can participate in such discussions. At the end of such discussion a number of decisions are agreed and implemented. Increases in all forms of charges can be included in such decisions. This is the way any professional well run business operates. Rumors are best ignored. It’s better to get factual information before making judgments.
Comment: PTC is advertising “guaranteed F/O positions.
Response: See response above.
3. Re: person referring to themselves as “PotKettleBlack” comments made on 28th April at 10:38
Comment: Instructors don’t actually see any of the cash.
Response: This claim is untrue. Instructors get 50% of the fee charged for groundschool. From the outset I have adapted the philosophy that the days of instructors working for charity were over as far as PTC was concerned. Instructors are hard working highly skilled people who are dedicated to their tasks and their industry. Unfortunately due to their level of dedication they are open to exploitation. At PTC we respect our instructors and we pay them accordingly. Gross earnings for instructors at PTC range from aprox. €2,500 to €5,500 per month.
4. Re: person referring to themselves as “TwoDead Dogs” comments made on 28th April at 15:00
Comment: It’s a Scam pure & simple.
Response: Can’t figure out where the evidence is to substantiate this claim. Let me assure you that this claim is factually incorrect. If you can substantiate this claim please forward your evidence to me. I assume that you are a pilot or student pilot. If so I urge you to desist from making such judgments on any issue unless that you have fully researched the facts.
5. Re: person referring to themselves as “Sprawler” comments made on 28th April at 15:36
Comment: Another FTO in Ireland getting a bad name. Flight training in Ireland is a joke.
Response: PTC has a very good reputation in Ireland and abroad. Please don’t make judgments based on spurious rumors. PTC has one primary objective which is to bring a high level of professionalism to the pilot training industry in Ireland and we are succeeding in this task. Were not perfect but we are as good as the best and better in some cases. Remember I was a student pilot at one time also and I experience the good and the bad in the industry.
Flight training in Ireland is now a serious industry. Ireland is in one of the most advantageous positions within Europe to becoming the centre of excellence for pilot training. Why ? because we have freely available airspace, some of the best weather in the British Isles (South East Ireland famous for its favorable micro climate) cheaper fuel, no VAT charges, no delays at airports queuing for taxy, takeoff and approach, minimal approach charges (€1.5 per approach at Waterford), freely available cheap accommodation etc. etc.
Substantial investment is being employed by PTC and as a result Ireland is been taken seriously by the international aviation community as a dominant centre for pilot training in the JAA jurisdiction.
I can see that you have formed your opinion about PTC from the other comments made on this forum. Might I suggest that you don’t take everything on this forum at face value. Instead I recommend that you research the facts first then perhaps reconsider your opinion on PTC. In this way you will find out for yourself what we are about and what we are achieving in Ireland.
6. Re: person referring to themselves as “Nibog” comments made on 29th April at 18:29
Comment: Approach the Boss with grievances.
Response: This is a very sensible comment. I welcome any feedback from students, prospective students, competing colleges and industry enthusiasts which will help to achieve our objectives. I don’t however agree with making anonymous claims on an anonymous forum for which there is no accountability. Anyone can make claims such as those made in this forum about an organization without having to provide any evidence. Competitors can misuse this forum to try to damage fellow competitors.
While I felt it necessary to provide this response to the various comments raised when they were brought to my attention, it is not my intention to make any further comment on this forum due to the fact that I am responding to unknown parties who choose to use pseudonyms. I will however respond to any comment or query which is sent to me by post or brought to my attention verbally by the person raising the concern and in this case I will deal sympathetically and positively with all concerns raised.
Might I suggest as a general point that people within the aviation industry that have genuine contribution to make to improving conditions within the industry might consider doing so on this and or other forums and that they might authenticate their points by putting their names to their comments. Comments made by people hiding behind pseudonyms are unlikely to be taken seriously. In addition, the use of pseudonyms allows those with a vested interest in damaging organizations and individuals the ability to do so without any accountability.
I hope that I have gone some way towards clarifying some issues and please feel free to write phone or e/mail me at any time if you wish to contribute to the success of the Pilot training college of Ireland.
With very best wishes to all in aviation
Yours Sincerely
Mike Edgeworth
Chief Executive Officer
The Pilot Training College of Ireland.
1. Re: person referring to themselves as “PigsFly” comments made on 27th April at 10:47 28th April at 08:54 and 29th April at 11:11.
Comment: Ground Briefing Charges raised at PTC from €20 to €40 per hour. These charges are not for Long Briefings but for “everytime an instructor is in your vicinity” and for “general Chats”
Response: These claims are factually incorrect. Ground School charges are for Ground School. Preflight briefings are not charged extra neither are any forms of “general chats”.
Generally we find that we have to conduct specific groundschool sessions on pertinent topics which students need to improve their knowledge on prior to being at a standard capable of obtaining a first time pass in their flight test. The time required varies with each student. We conduct group ground school lessons with students at the same level in order to minimize the cost to the individual. The rate for this is €30 per hour.
Comment: Management has adapted an aggressive charging regime.
Response: This is untrue. Management of PTC is of the highest caliber and conducts their business affairs on a fair and reasonable basis. There is no strategy in PTC to be aggressive in our Management methods.
Comment: PTC guarantees F/O positions.
Response: This is untrue. PTC does however guarantee an airline interview for graduates of PTC who reach a standard that we consider acceptable to the airlines we deal with. This explains why 98% of our graduates are in airline jobs.
Comment: PTC will follow its failed predecessor at Waterford.
Response: I don’t fully understand this comment. I was not aware that PTC had a predecessor at Waterford. Perhaps this refers to a training school which existed some time in the past.
Comment: Pickings to thin down in the South East of Ireland.
Response: PTC is operating at full capacity with students from all over Europe USA & Australia. I don’t think that the availability of students in the South East of Ireland is a significant Market driver towards the viability of PTC. As a JAA FTO we are addressing the market in the JAA jurisdiction and beyond for ICAO to JAA conversions.
Comment: Time frame required for groundschool gross understatement of what students will be billed for.
Response: Times in all aspects of Pilot training including those published by JAA are minimum times required. The actual time required will depend largely on the student, his/her abilities and the study time he / she is prepared to devote to theoretical knowledge learning outside the college. This scenario is not particular to PTC it is I generally accepted norm in the industry. The primary objective at PTC is that we will strive at all times to train to a standard whereby the student will obtain a first time pass in all his / her tests and exams and obtain quality employment in a reasonable timeframe.
Comment: PTC is involved in “piecemeal charging for Groundschool”
Response: This is untrue. All Flying Training Slots are pre-booked on our computerized reservation system. A schedule of these is given to the student at the outset. Training slots are carried out in accordance with this schedule or in accordance with necessary alterations depending on weather, student progress and many other factors. Charges are made only when the training slot is completed.
Comment: PTC is a “bunch of pickpockets”
Response: This claim is categorically untrue and unnecessarily damaging to an FTO whose employees are of the highest caliber in the industry and all of whom operate to the highest standards of integrity and honesty. I invite the claimant on behalf of our employees and Management to substantiate this statement.
2. Re: person referring to themselves as “Flybear” comments made on 27th April at 23:06 and 29th April 11:11.
Comment: PTC charge €60 per hour for ME/IR groundschool.
Response: This is correct. I believe that this is a reasonable rate per hour for senior instructors conducting ME / IR Groundschool. PTC pays instructors 50% of the hourly rate charged by the College to students. The balance goes towards overheads and towards further investment in developing the College. As part of our strategic development plan we are not taking any profits from the business in the first five years of operations. I have always believed that instructors should be paid as professionals for their very valuable work. My dentist charges me the equivalent of €150 per hour for consultation. His training and investment in his career is not any greater than that of a senior Flight and/or Groundschool instructor.
Comment: PTC is suffering from “Greed”
Response: While this may be the perception of some this claim could not be further from the truth. The costs associated with operating a business in any developed country these days are substantial. There are very few commercial enterprises in this industry that are in a position to be greedy…. Flying schools certainly not. If we were making excessive charges and cutting corners on our service level, quality of equipment or personal attention to our students I could understand such a claim being made but let me assure you this is not the case. I really think that before making such statements or using such words one should be better informed.
Comment: Groundschool is not good in PTC
Response: We are not perfect and we consistently strive to improve our standards. However I do believe that our instructors and the quality of our instruction is at a level which puts us at the forefront of the industry. If not why are the vast majority of our students obtaining first time passes and why are our graduates being employed in large numbers.
Comment: Instructors are made to do Groundschool by Management. They are “burning up time to keep management happy”
Response: This claim is untrue. The decision on a students need for groundschool is made by the instructor and / or the CFI. Nobody is forced to do Groundschool. Our instructors are of a caliber whereby I don’t think it would be possible to force them to do something that they considered incorrect or unnecessary. Our internal corporate culture is in fact the direct opposite whereby all employees are given latitude to express themselves and to carry out their duties at their own discretion within the scope of the Operations manual of the FTO.
Comment: Rumor that Accounts told Management that PTC was making money from Flying but not from Groundschool hence increases in charges.
Response: Our internal management structure does not lend itself to one division telling the other what to do. We regularly discuss issues and make decision accordingly. These discussions involve at least one person from each division of the College so up to 8 people can participate in such discussions. At the end of such discussion a number of decisions are agreed and implemented. Increases in all forms of charges can be included in such decisions. This is the way any professional well run business operates. Rumors are best ignored. It’s better to get factual information before making judgments.
Comment: PTC is advertising “guaranteed F/O positions.
Response: See response above.
3. Re: person referring to themselves as “PotKettleBlack” comments made on 28th April at 10:38
Comment: Instructors don’t actually see any of the cash.
Response: This claim is untrue. Instructors get 50% of the fee charged for groundschool. From the outset I have adapted the philosophy that the days of instructors working for charity were over as far as PTC was concerned. Instructors are hard working highly skilled people who are dedicated to their tasks and their industry. Unfortunately due to their level of dedication they are open to exploitation. At PTC we respect our instructors and we pay them accordingly. Gross earnings for instructors at PTC range from aprox. €2,500 to €5,500 per month.
4. Re: person referring to themselves as “TwoDead Dogs” comments made on 28th April at 15:00
Comment: It’s a Scam pure & simple.
Response: Can’t figure out where the evidence is to substantiate this claim. Let me assure you that this claim is factually incorrect. If you can substantiate this claim please forward your evidence to me. I assume that you are a pilot or student pilot. If so I urge you to desist from making such judgments on any issue unless that you have fully researched the facts.
5. Re: person referring to themselves as “Sprawler” comments made on 28th April at 15:36
Comment: Another FTO in Ireland getting a bad name. Flight training in Ireland is a joke.
Response: PTC has a very good reputation in Ireland and abroad. Please don’t make judgments based on spurious rumors. PTC has one primary objective which is to bring a high level of professionalism to the pilot training industry in Ireland and we are succeeding in this task. Were not perfect but we are as good as the best and better in some cases. Remember I was a student pilot at one time also and I experience the good and the bad in the industry.
Flight training in Ireland is now a serious industry. Ireland is in one of the most advantageous positions within Europe to becoming the centre of excellence for pilot training. Why ? because we have freely available airspace, some of the best weather in the British Isles (South East Ireland famous for its favorable micro climate) cheaper fuel, no VAT charges, no delays at airports queuing for taxy, takeoff and approach, minimal approach charges (€1.5 per approach at Waterford), freely available cheap accommodation etc. etc.
Substantial investment is being employed by PTC and as a result Ireland is been taken seriously by the international aviation community as a dominant centre for pilot training in the JAA jurisdiction.
I can see that you have formed your opinion about PTC from the other comments made on this forum. Might I suggest that you don’t take everything on this forum at face value. Instead I recommend that you research the facts first then perhaps reconsider your opinion on PTC. In this way you will find out for yourself what we are about and what we are achieving in Ireland.
6. Re: person referring to themselves as “Nibog” comments made on 29th April at 18:29
Comment: Approach the Boss with grievances.
Response: This is a very sensible comment. I welcome any feedback from students, prospective students, competing colleges and industry enthusiasts which will help to achieve our objectives. I don’t however agree with making anonymous claims on an anonymous forum for which there is no accountability. Anyone can make claims such as those made in this forum about an organization without having to provide any evidence. Competitors can misuse this forum to try to damage fellow competitors.
While I felt it necessary to provide this response to the various comments raised when they were brought to my attention, it is not my intention to make any further comment on this forum due to the fact that I am responding to unknown parties who choose to use pseudonyms. I will however respond to any comment or query which is sent to me by post or brought to my attention verbally by the person raising the concern and in this case I will deal sympathetically and positively with all concerns raised.
Might I suggest as a general point that people within the aviation industry that have genuine contribution to make to improving conditions within the industry might consider doing so on this and or other forums and that they might authenticate their points by putting their names to their comments. Comments made by people hiding behind pseudonyms are unlikely to be taken seriously. In addition, the use of pseudonyms allows those with a vested interest in damaging organizations and individuals the ability to do so without any accountability.
I hope that I have gone some way towards clarifying some issues and please feel free to write phone or e/mail me at any time if you wish to contribute to the success of the Pilot training college of Ireland.
With very best wishes to all in aviation
Yours Sincerely
Mike Edgeworth
Chief Executive Officer
The Pilot Training College of Ireland.
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Now now Mike you misquoted me and cherry picked my thread. Nice to read your reply though and I am glad that your school sees fit to share on an equitable basis the g/s fees with your instructors. As you would be aware many schools don't and we get the sad situation of instructors struggling from hand to mouth to survive whilst students are under the impression that they are reasonably well paid.
On another note, since your following this thread close.....I have been following the PTC/Bournemouth thread as I am considering PTC Waterford for my multi CPL/IR later in the summer. Can you confirm that Tony Kember is NOT involved with your organisation? By that I mean has no financial interest/management position etc. Cheers.
On another note, since your following this thread close.....I have been following the PTC/Bournemouth thread as I am considering PTC Waterford for my multi CPL/IR later in the summer. Can you confirm that Tony Kember is NOT involved with your organisation? By that I mean has no financial interest/management position etc. Cheers.
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I just finished my PPL at PTC in Waterford so i think i can comment on this.
You dont decide where to go training simply by looking at a website (PTC or PPrune). You make a telephone call, go to the college. Speak to the people there. If you ring PTC, even before this thread was started i'm 100% sure they would have told you the correct prices for groundschool. Therefore using the term pickpockets implies theft or robbery without your knowledge. This is simply not the case. If you dont know what you're being charged or what your paying for, that is nobody elses fault but you own.
You dont decide where to go training simply by looking at a website (PTC or PPrune). You make a telephone call, go to the college. Speak to the people there. If you ring PTC, even before this thread was started i'm 100% sure they would have told you the correct prices for groundschool. Therefore using the term pickpockets implies theft or robbery without your knowledge. This is simply not the case. If you dont know what you're being charged or what your paying for, that is nobody elses fault but you own.
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CEO vs Accounts
In reply to the person who refers to himself as Mike Edgeworth. If you are the CEO perhaps you should have a look at what your accounts Dept is up to, or not up to as the case may be. My info is derived from the inspection of accounts of two students at PTC and conversation with a third.
1. If your groundschool rate is 30 Euro per hour why are you charging your students 40 per hour, also why did you put up a notice in the school late march increasing the price from 20 to 40 Euro per hour. Do you actually know what is going on at your school?????? Aslo I notice that the charges have now, in the last couple of hours from 20 to 40 on the website!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. If you do not charge for pre flight briefings, why do charges groundschool for the pre flight brief appear on students accounts and removed from their Balance?
If you are the real Mike Edgeworth, as I feel you are, perhaps you should take a look at some students accounts, be it instructors that are submitting time cards for groundschool, or an over zealous accounts clerk, someone is letting you down.
Enough said on the matter now anyway.
1. If your groundschool rate is 30 Euro per hour why are you charging your students 40 per hour, also why did you put up a notice in the school late march increasing the price from 20 to 40 Euro per hour. Do you actually know what is going on at your school?????? Aslo I notice that the charges have now, in the last couple of hours from 20 to 40 on the website!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. If you do not charge for pre flight briefings, why do charges groundschool for the pre flight brief appear on students accounts and removed from their Balance?
If you are the real Mike Edgeworth, as I feel you are, perhaps you should take a look at some students accounts, be it instructors that are submitting time cards for groundschool, or an over zealous accounts clerk, someone is letting you down.
Enough said on the matter now anyway.
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I just printed off a list of PTC's pricelist earlier and I came across this thread.
Looking at what I printed earlier today;
"Ground briefings for flight exercises" (for PPL ) is €40 per hour
"Ground briefings" for ME Rating is €50 per hour
"Ground briefings"for CPL is €50 per hour
"Ground briefings" for ME IR is €60 per hour
So, you say that there is no charge for pre-flight briefings, and that there is a €30 charge for groundschool. (That €30 fee is not mentioned anywhere on the 2006 Price List) Can you clarify what the above mentioned fees are for,as I am a bit confused! Are they classroom sessions, pre-flight?
Looking at what I printed earlier today;
"Ground briefings for flight exercises" (for PPL ) is €40 per hour
"Ground briefings" for ME Rating is €50 per hour
"Ground briefings"for CPL is €50 per hour
"Ground briefings" for ME IR is €60 per hour
Generally we find that we have to conduct specific groundschool sessions on pertinent topics which students need to improve their knowledge on prior to being at a standard capable of obtaining a first time pass in their flight test. The time required varies with each student. We conduct group ground school lessons with students at the same level in order to minimize the cost to the individual. The rate for this is €30 per hour.
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Person referring to themselves as “Mike Edgeworth” comments made on 1st May 2006.
News for you Mike – this is a Rumour and News network and I have yet to see a post that didn’t have some truth in it. No smoke without fire and all that.
I am not qualified to get involved with the quality or otherwise of the training at PTC Waterford, which by the way is not being questioned by the original poster, but I am qualified to comment on Avaition training in Ireland and its not good. To that end I cannot let your comments quoted below go unopposed.
Quote
The only thing that is serious about flight training in Ireland is that it is seriously expensive and I have never, in all the training I have done there, ever come even close to spending the “price list” that was quoted. Strangely enough sundries like ground briefs etc were a fair source of the over spend. The most substantial source of over spend though was the endless waiting for examiners from the authority, the IAA. I know of several people who have waited anywhere between 6 and 10 weeks for a skills test and all the while having to stay current, which meant spending thousands of euro over the budget.
What has that got to do with PTC. Well, strictly speaking, nothing but don’t come on here and try and make out that, and I quote,
“.
because its so not.
Finally your cheap shot about the anonymity of the posters on this forum is beneath you. Obviously a student of the other brash CEO’s who are trying to brow beat vulnerable students into keeping their mouths shut and hoping that the sharper practices that they pick up on during their training are kept out of the public domain. Well good for all you who have the courage to post your experiences. I think that most of us are capable of discerning those with a grudge and those who have something to say that will benefit fellow students and hopefully prevent them from making the same mistakes. I notice that as a result of this thread you have seen fit to correct your incorrect prices quoted on your web site.
My advice to those who are considering training in Ireland is to research it thoroughly and then decide to go elsewhere.
News for you Mike – this is a Rumour and News network and I have yet to see a post that didn’t have some truth in it. No smoke without fire and all that.
I am not qualified to get involved with the quality or otherwise of the training at PTC Waterford, which by the way is not being questioned by the original poster, but I am qualified to comment on Avaition training in Ireland and its not good. To that end I cannot let your comments quoted below go unopposed.
Quote
…..Flight training in Ireland is now a serious industry. Ireland is in one of the most advantageous positions within Europe to becoming the centre of excellence for pilot training. Why ? because we have freely available airspace, some of the best weather in the British Isles (South East Ireland famous for its favorable micro climate) cheaper fuel, no VAT charges, no delays at airports queuing for taxy, takeoff and approach, minimal approach charges (€1.5 per approach at Waterford), freely available cheap accommodation etc. etc.
Substantial investment is being employed by PTC and as a result Ireland is been taken seriously by the international aviation community as a dominant centre for pilot training in the JAA jurisdiction.
Substantial investment is being employed by PTC and as a result Ireland is been taken seriously by the international aviation community as a dominant centre for pilot training in the JAA jurisdiction.
The only thing that is serious about flight training in Ireland is that it is seriously expensive and I have never, in all the training I have done there, ever come even close to spending the “price list” that was quoted. Strangely enough sundries like ground briefs etc were a fair source of the over spend. The most substantial source of over spend though was the endless waiting for examiners from the authority, the IAA. I know of several people who have waited anywhere between 6 and 10 weeks for a skills test and all the while having to stay current, which meant spending thousands of euro over the budget.
What has that got to do with PTC. Well, strictly speaking, nothing but don’t come on here and try and make out that, and I quote,
“.
Ireland is in one of the most advantageous positions within Europe to becoming the centre of excellence for pilot training”
Finally your cheap shot about the anonymity of the posters on this forum is beneath you. Obviously a student of the other brash CEO’s who are trying to brow beat vulnerable students into keeping their mouths shut and hoping that the sharper practices that they pick up on during their training are kept out of the public domain. Well good for all you who have the courage to post your experiences. I think that most of us are capable of discerning those with a grudge and those who have something to say that will benefit fellow students and hopefully prevent them from making the same mistakes. I notice that as a result of this thread you have seen fit to correct your incorrect prices quoted on your web site.
My advice to those who are considering training in Ireland is to research it thoroughly and then decide to go elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by Mike Edgeworth
Might I suggest as a general point that people within the aviation industry that have genuine contribution to make to improving conditions within the industry might consider doing so on this and or other forums and that they might authenticate their points by putting their names to their comments. Comments made by people hiding behind pseudonyms are unlikely to be taken seriously. In addition, the use of pseudonyms allows those with a vested interest in damaging organizations and individuals the ability to do so without any accountability.
If I had a flight school, and I went on a website and there were named students/ex students (and others, of course, I doubt that more than one or two are students / ex students) from my school posting somewhat negative comments about my school, I don't expect my attitude towards them would be the same as it had been before I found their posts.
I'm not at PTC, and personally I am trying to avoid giving either a negative or a positive opinion of the company, but as aviation is a pretty small community, I, as most others on this thread, would prefer to remain in anonymity.
I'm afraid that I disagree with the comment that people using pseudonyms will not be taken seriously. On the contrary, I think that people are likely to take them very seriously indeed.
Good luck
LW
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Perspective seriously needed
Having been enrolled as a student at many of the training establishments including PTC in Ireland I feel the need to clarify a few bits! I graduated out of Cabair College of Air Training on the integrated course, having passed all the atpl ground and flight exams!, I still find myself hunting for that elusive first job! I spent some time at the Pilot Training College of Ireland and can honestly say I have never come across a more professionally run outfit! All of the new graduates from there have found themselves in jobs at Aer Arann and Ryanair to name a few (there are more)!! This is no Fluke!, All the students there are given the tools and knowledge to go on to be a fully competent commercial airline pilot! And of course all this comes at a price!, It is essential each and every pilot is equipped with good theoretical knowledge to enable them to cope in a pressurised commercial environment! This is why the staff and management of PTC feel it is entirely necessary that they put this into force and having been through numerous training places i stand with them on their quest to do so! Anyone thinking of where to train will not be better looked after and be more professionally trained than at the PTC of Ireland.
Having spent a huge fortune at the likes of Cabair and other such places and come away with nothing more than a few papers, new trainees need to have a serious think about the level they need to be at to fly in the highly pressurised comercial environment which exists today!
Having spent a huge fortune at the likes of Cabair and other such places and come away with nothing more than a few papers, new trainees need to have a serious think about the level they need to be at to fly in the highly pressurised comercial environment which exists today!
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All the students there are given the tools and knowledge to go on to be a fully competent commercial airline pilot! And of course all this comes at a price!,
I visited PTC and it seems like a good setup. Very professional, but not unlike other schools I have visited. What stands out for me, is the price of the training. It is extremely expensive....and OK, apart from the fact they will get you an interview with an airline, I just do not see the justification in spending such a large amount of money there.
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Flyman24 speaks of ex-PTC students who got jobs with Ryanair.
I wonder how many of them paid for their Type Rating, just like everyone else! If you are willing to spend €30k for a TR, and live without an income for a few years, then FR will hire you! Of course MOL sees it as an advantage if you're Irish or Scandinavian (preferably a blonde Swede).
Rip Off Ireland! Has Mr. Hobbs been posting on these forums.......(?)
I wonder how many of them paid for their Type Rating, just like everyone else! If you are willing to spend €30k for a TR, and live without an income for a few years, then FR will hire you! Of course MOL sees it as an advantage if you're Irish or Scandinavian (preferably a blonde Swede).
Rip Off Ireland! Has Mr. Hobbs been posting on these forums.......(?)
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Advertising changes
You have positive comment in relation to your experiences at PTC. That is good to hear. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to whether you were charged for post/preflight briefing and exactly when you finished training there.
Again as starter of this thread the standards of training of this establishment is not the issue, its the charges and methods of charging for short periods of briefing/de-briefing.
The thread has succeeded in getting the college to amend its online price list, albeit a month after they started charging the new prices. Also I note their adveretising page online now clearly states that Hourly rate for instruction includes cost of Pre/postflight briefing/de briefing.
Thanks to the power of pprune that these amendments have brought this matter to public forum and same has been addressed. I hope all at the facility benefit and that prospective students can make a more accurate cost analysis.
Best of Luck to all.
Again as starter of this thread the standards of training of this establishment is not the issue, its the charges and methods of charging for short periods of briefing/de-briefing.
The thread has succeeded in getting the college to amend its online price list, albeit a month after they started charging the new prices. Also I note their adveretising page online now clearly states that Hourly rate for instruction includes cost of Pre/postflight briefing/de briefing.
Thanks to the power of pprune that these amendments have brought this matter to public forum and same has been addressed. I hope all at the facility benefit and that prospective students can make a more accurate cost analysis.
Best of Luck to all.
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Cost of training
Wow! a very interesting thread indeed. I have had the expierence of wasted money on poor training and comparitively the expierence of excellent training for a little more cost which was worth every cent to gain my ppl. Anyone who is attempting to persue a flying career will be of good intellegence and this thread has highlighted the equal importance of taking as much effort to research your chosen FTO for your hard borrowed money. I decided to check out the PTC for myself in person last week and flew into Waterford. I was very impressed with the set up and everything was given to me cost wise for the CPL and ME/IR with the added 'these are minimum requirements' and each student will differ depending on the effort and ability of the individual. I got the feel of a very professional outfit who are striving for excellence. They have a very good rep for passing flight tests! I also looked at the ATPL ground school notes from Naples for €2,500 so here is my appeal for some advice from some of you expierenced aviators.......
Your off-topic request for information has been deleted. Please use an appropriate thread for information about other schools. Scroggs.
Your off-topic request for information has been deleted. Please use an appropriate thread for information about other schools. Scroggs.
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Like I said previously, the fees for the ME-IR at PTC have increased from around €16,000 to around €20,000 since being open for business and I'm sure many people would agree that €20k is not cheap. Also, what charges can be expected on top of their quoted price, I'm thinking in terms of landing and approach fees.
I would be very interested to hear from PTC students to see if the high price is worth paying there, and particularly how PTC compares to other FTO's such as Atlantic Air in Cork.
I would be very interested to hear from PTC students to see if the high price is worth paying there, and particularly how PTC compares to other FTO's such as Atlantic Air in Cork.
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Pilot Training College Ireland
Have found this website very useful so far in attempting to make a decision as to who to train with, however I'm surprised there's no info on the Pilot Training College of Ireland based in Waterford.
Had a word with one of their marketing reps at the recent London Airshow who seemed very friendly (well guess they're paid to be so). She mentioned that it was one of the only FTO's that offers 1on1 tuition when in the sky, most others have a ration of 2 or 3 tutee's to tutors. Is this the case at places like Stapleford, CTC etc?
If anyone's trained with this crowd, I'd be most appreciative if you could post up your experiences thoughts etc.
Had a word with one of their marketing reps at the recent London Airshow who seemed very friendly (well guess they're paid to be so). She mentioned that it was one of the only FTO's that offers 1on1 tuition when in the sky, most others have a ration of 2 or 3 tutee's to tutors. Is this the case at places like Stapleford, CTC etc?
If anyone's trained with this crowd, I'd be most appreciative if you could post up your experiences thoughts etc.