Aerobatic Flyer

Agreed.

Seems reasonable.

What I was trying to explain was one of the reasons why spinning isn't on the syllabus.

When you look at the POH of the 'dog (and I expect that similar a/c have similar numbers), the manufacturers say plan on a minimum of 1350ft for a single turn, then I suppose that one can see the train of thought that a stall/spin in the circuit will probably be lethal to a student or average PPL.

The numbers in the POH are probably very conservative for an experienced aero pilot, but they are in b&w and form part of the a/c C of A, so there you go.

The CAA seem to take the view that avoidance is the way to go and deal only with the incipient spin in the syllabus.

However, it would seem that the majority of the posters on this thread take a quite different view.

I think I would stand by the probity of my original posting, but on reflection would word it to indicate that the orders of magnitude for recovery for a glider and SEP are significantly different.

Hoe you enjoyed the wine


:D :D

You don't need any exotic machinery to practice spinning.

I seem to remember the humble Rollason Condor has an enthusiastic spin entry, the roll rate exceeding the yaw rate, so it rolled into the spin.

All the same, it stops very quickly.

Ah, the Condor! Ideal trainer.

I would just like to say, as a newcomer to Ppune, thanks Guys n Gals for all of the comments posted here.
It seems that most people would elect to do spinning. It also seems that a lot of aircraft used for training are not cleared for spinning. Unfortunatlely of course, the Aircraft has not read the book, so, given the right (wrong) circumstances it will 'Depart from controlled flight'
By the same token, I am very glad to report that my instructor was very keen on 'Recovery from unusul attitudes' (I think it helped break his boredom)
I can admit to one occasion since getting my licence where I did come close 'inadvertantly' whilst circling a friends house , at about 12-1300' I was of course more interested for a moment in the ground, and forgot rule number one( Fly The Bl@@dy Aircraft), and rule number two (Gravity never gives up)
Once again, as a new Ppruner, thanks to all.

You would have to be pretty confused about your attitude to let your aircraft get into a spin by accident...surely!

HWD, not necessarily. I'm no expert on the logic/maths of this stuff, but it seems to me that an a/c can only spin if it's stalled. This may seem passe, but what is the stall speed of your aircraft- wrong answer proably, whatever you said.

There you are fat dumb and happy pootling round some turn or other, doesn't matter where, and you pull a bit to get round the turn, perhaps to maintain hieght. Now you are in say a 2G turn, suddlenly the stall speed you thought you had is now way to slow, keep pulling and adding G and up goes the stall speed. Bingo high speed spin entry. Whizzo fun, or not depends on what you expected!

You do not have to be at a jaunty attidude to spin. If you think that you do, I strongly suggest you go and get some spin training in something hot that will demo all this stuff in saftely -4G pulls and spin entries in a warrior are probably not a good thing, unless you have a death wish.

:=

HWD, I may have misinterpreted your post, but it appeared to imply that stalling and spinning are connected with aircraft attitude relative to the horizon, rather than with angle of attack. It is quite possible to stall and spin in a variety of attitudes, as can be demonstrated by a trip with an aerobatic instructor. Even without going aerobatic, training in slow flight explores the aircraft's behaviour when flown at a high angle of attack. The pilot who stalls and spins in from a turn (perhaps under the stress of an engine failure, to use a relatively common scenario) probably does not experience, subjectively, a particularly extreme attitude before the aircraft departs.

I think that PPL training ought to include spinning, but appreciate the various reasons why it doesn't. I agree with FFF that spinning can be rather good fun, once you've tried it.

That Gene Beggs book
 

It is amazing really what you learn on this forum.

Gene Beggs has been one of my aerobatic heroes since I first went upside down in Texas over 10 years ago.

Now I learn that he lives not too far from where I first aerobatted and that he wrote a book.

I e-mailed him last week and today Leighton, my postie delivered two copies of Gene's book. (One copy is a birthday pressie for a buddy!) Enclosed was an invoice. Great book and great service!!

Stik

Stik did it make your hair stand on end when you started to read it?

Ludwig,

It arrived at 1230. I decided to open the envelope but not take the book out of the cellophane.

Because I was going flying!

Ran through this year's std sequence a couple of times played with some flicks and then did a 3 turn accelerated spin from 3 thou before heading home.

Landed. Opened the book and only put it down after reading about his " Second Close Call in the Pitts".

Hair standing on end - yep! Do I think that this book should be compulsory reading for Pitts pilots? Yep.

The funny thing is that I know all about the Beggs-Muller/ Muller-Beggs recovery and have read Muller's book but didn't know that Gene had written one! Thanks for his e-addy. Would love to pop in and see him/fly with him next month when I go look at the aeroplane we discussed the other day.

See you soon

Stik

Only in a 152 thus far, but one has to give the little fella some serious stick before it gives in. I am talking about stalling in a 60 degree bank. Any other provocation barely results in a wing drop , which a bit of rudder sorts out before anything like a spin develops.

I am very inexeperienced, so I have to ask just when does one anticipate stalling an aircraft so severly by accident? On approach? During a PFL? In a wake?

However, the idea of being forced to set fire to my house to test my fire extinguisher does not strike me as the best approach. Methinks, one should be encouraged to practice spin recovery only when converting to planes where a spin is likely to be a serious issue.

"converting to [aero]planes where a spin is likely to be a serious issue"

So, that'll be, er....all aeroplanes then (leaving Canards and Aircoupes out of this). Situations for spinning? as you mention: on approach, during a forced landing, trying to get a shot on the Wycombe Chipmunk in a turning fight (hey, Andy, that was just nibbling the buffet). Wake turbulence may be more likely to put you in an unusual attitude, from which, if you don't recover, you might spin.

I have only recently got my licence and the grand total of 0.8hrs on my log book since passing the skills test (Bl@@dy Weather), so somebody please correct me if I am wrong, :O but I believe I am correct in saying that one of the less expected nasty ones is a turn from up wind to down wind through 180.

Say for example head wind is 30 knots (IAS reads 90) and you pull a steep 180 degree turn to the right (or left) your stall speed goes up anyway( due to steep angle of bank), but then all of a sudden you have lost 30 knots of airspeed because you are flying down wind.

Stall and Spin territory :eek:

Somebody slap me if I'm wrong!

No. No No No NO NO!!!

The wind has absolutely NO effect on aircraft performance. Ever. Full stop.

What you are getting confused with is the visual effects which can happen if you're close to the ground. During the turn, the wind will make the aircraft appear to be skidding across the sky very much out of balance, when in actual fact it is in balance. The pilot then (mistakenly) increases the amount of bank angle, which increases the stall speed and takes the aircraft out of balance - and that's a recipe for a stall/spin. It's not the wind that causes it, it's the pilot. I have to say I've never heard a first-hand (or even second-hand) story of anyone falling foul of this, but I have read lots of old wives tales.

The only time that wind can cause control difficulties, apart from take-off and landing, is in wind-shear. Any other time, the aircraft's movement is always relative to the air mass, regardless of what the air mass is doing.

FFF
----------------

Agree with FFF - good description ...

Flying out of balance is sloppy, it affects aircraft performance and shows that you aren't paying much attention.

On centreline seating types it is pretty east to tell when you are out of balance by different pressures on your bum cheeks!

It works in side by side aeroplanes but it is probably easier to learn this in tandem types.

If the left side of your bum feels "heavier" or has the seat pressing harder against it, you need more left rudder.... simple really!

There are times when you need to fly out of balance but these are generally in aerobatics and in side-slipping.

Stik

Same argument goes for skid recovery to be part of learning to drive. Everybody would agree it is a good idea, but how many do it when they are totally focussed on their licence?

Licences don't make good pilots/drivers - experience does. I'm sure there is a very good reason the University Air Squadron system used to teach spinning at an early point in the syllabus. Fantastic fun and bloody useful, especially when young guys go solo GH in a (fully?) aerobatic a/c like the (mighty?) Bulldog - just too tempting. I'm all for it.

Oh, and if the 'dog loses 350 feet per spin, that's 2050ft to do 3 spins and recover within another 1000ft (just thought I'd correct some earlier maths).;)

On myth to quash here....

Spinning IS on the syllabus. It always HAS been and always WILL be.

Ex11A Spin Avoidance & Awareness - Recovery from incipient spin
MANDATORY
This exercise MUST appear in all log books as part of the 2 hours of stall spin training as required under JAR FCL-1. Any organisation FAILING to provide this training is NOT complying with JAR FCL.

Ex11B Fully Developed Spin Recoveries
OPTIONAL
This exercise is optional and is dependent on FOB of the RF/FTO in question, as well as the a/c CofA/FOM/POH and the discrection of the FI and student. My advice is simple - if its available and is offered - take it.


Hope this clears up comments like 'spinning is not in the syllabus' or 'spinning was removed from the syllabus' - If these comments are made by an instructor or an examiner then that person should themselves consider some retraining....and some time spent with the *actual* documents specifying what should be taught.

I also wish to endorse comments by stiknruda & flyingforfun....both damn good points.

Re: wind & turns - obviously the article a couple of months ago in flyer magazine was missed by flyingwysiwyg

FFF & Stik:

That will be a NO then.

Thanks for putting me straight on that one! I stand corrected :O

Formation Flyer:

I will look that article up in Pilot when I get a chance. What issue was it? as I only recently renewed my subs.

When I did my PPL I elected to do exercise 11B in a 152 Aerobat (Better harness). Must admit I was extremely aprehensive of doing it, and did only manage to utter the word s**t during my first attempted recovery, but I do think its like a lot of things, once you've done it once, you realise it's not as bad as a lot of people make out. Ended up quite liking it after a bit.

fwyg

fwyg,

I've always found that posting crap on PPRuNe is one of the greatest ways of learning things... the crap that I've been known to post has never gone very long without being corrected ;)

FFF
--------------

Flyingwsywig,

It is unfortunate that few ab-initio instructors know how to enter a spin in a smooth, gentle competition type entry.

Years ago when I was learning to fly my instructress warned me that her 150 didn't really like to enter a spin. To make it spin she flicked it into a spin and the entry was rather frightening.

It put years on me and it took me a couple of years to pluck up courage to want to get some more spin training!




THAT GENE BEGGS BOOK IS ENTHRALLING AND I'M HOPING FOR DECENT WX THIS W/E TO ALLOW ME TO RUN THROUGH LESSONS 1 to 4



Stik

Strakes philosophy is stated below........

Hmmmm... It used to say "spin 'till yer dizzy!"