Thanks for the info AA

I notice the document is titled:-

"Consultation for The Proposal to Amend The Air Navigation Order 2000 to Require the Carriage and Operation of Mode Select Secondary Surveillance Radar Equipment for Aircraft Flying in Designated UK Mode Select Airspace"

The big question, is what is "Designated UK Mode Select Airspace"? If it is present Class A airspace, then VFR pilots won't have anything to worry about, or if it is like the USA Mode C Veils which only exist 30 nm radius around major airports.....I don't know.....

I have been checking the price of Txpdrs, and the current price is around $5,000 US for a Garmin. Hopefully by 2005 - 2008 the price will drop significantly....though as with everything to do with aviation, the price will remain horribly over priced.

EA;)

EA,

"...current price is around $5,000 US for a Garmin..."

Sorry, a Garmin what? As the requirement isn't yet clarified how can Garmin (or anyone else) quote a price?

Or was that an "un-enhanced-Mode-S" piece of kit?

TIA

Not advertising here but just a few examples:-

"Garmin has introduced a value-priced Mode-S transponder, the GTX 330. At $4,995, the GTX 330, Garmin believes, will be a cost-effective option."

"Bendix King KT70: Similar to KT-71 but DOES include Mode S (Select) capability "

GTX 330 Panel mount, Mode S datalink transponder (black face) $4995

GTX 330 Panel mount, Mode S datalink transponder (gray face) $5237

GTX 330D Panel mount, Mode S datalink transponder with diversity (black face) $9995

GTX 330D Panel mount, Mode S datalink transponder with diversity (gray face) $10487

KT-70 Solid State Digital Panel Mounted Mode S Transponder OHC
*includes installation kit upon request $2750 $995

KT-70 Solid State Digital Panel Mounted Mode S Transponder NEW $5504 $---

KT-70+ Silver Crown Plus Solid State Mode S Transponder NEW $5504 $---


[Not sure what enhanced is....:)]

EA;)

It's all very scary.

Enhanced mode S means, I think, that the transponder tells ATC what you've set on your autopilot, your mag track, number of Pax, number of hot meals left on board, hostie's telephone number, and so on.

That means a "glass cockpit" to feed the Mode S. That's going to look very odd on Tiger Moths and the like, isn't it.

I can understand that if I want to fly IFR in Class A airspace in 2010, I'm likely to need enhanced Mode S. I don't like it, but I can understand it.

For everything else, and up to (say) 10,000 feet, surely common sense should prevail. I would like to see our CAA telling Eurowhatever not to be so silly, and to change the rules they've just dreamed up without use of brain.

An "exemption" is NOT a good idea. Those have a habit of being withdrawn, and anyway don't work elsewhere.

Where is AOPA? Not heard a lot from that quarter about what's being done... Should we all write in to say our views, or will that drown the CAA in conflicting arguments, leaving the "do nothing" option as the best one?

Cool - how can I get a job in ATC? ;)

FFF
---------------

englishal

I haven't reread the doc, but I think you will find that VFR flight in the middle of nowhere gets dragged in around 2007/2008.

keef

:D

I think the only relevant thing for GA traffic with "enhanced" mode S is because it "squitts" your position in 3 dimensions. I get the impression the only thing "bog-standard" mode S does in the GA world is provide a unique key which can be used to look up your tail number and send you a letter for busting restricted airspace. I'm not sure how the EU is going to find out where you are in 3D without using that nasty US GPS system which is totally unsuitable for EU aviation purposes (like approaches) :) Mode S is obviously not required for GA because there is model out there where mode S is obligatory for TCAS (even for on demand part 135 charter operations), and huge numbers of VFR planes not using it is irrelevant.

My airline pilot friends tell me that in the low level airspace where you find swarms of VFR traffic, squawking mode C is perfectly adequate for their situational awareness purposes. They also tell me they would rather you squawk mode C than turn your transponder off and not be able to see where you are. They can filter out all the VFR traffic in busy terminal areas, just like ATC can.

With some digging, there is some good stuff to be found on the FAA web site, and the CAA doc has a bilbliography. Years down the line this technology could be very useful for GA because the mode S (or more likely ADS-B) groundstations will be able to transmit positions of conflicting traffic to you in real time. I think this has been demonstrated in the US, but they are still working out (ie consulting :)) how this will affect the WHOLE aviation sector.

All this is all from a very basic understanding, others will know more.

Cheers

I know you're all busy thinking about my NOTAMs question - so just a gentle reminder about this. :D

Responses need to be received in relation to this by 24 January 2003 (this month)

I asked some questions on the ATC forum when you posted the first alert on Mode S, and got the impression that there were sufficient problems and sufficient unknowns that the experts would be unlikely to impose mode S on GA without more thought.

If my impressions are wrong perhaps I should panic at the cost implications.

However, the knowledgeable people on the ATC forum threw up so much technical detail that I found it difficult to formulate what might be considered to be a balanced objection.

To object on the basis of cost would be valid, to object on the basis that the cost is not justified is more difficult without really understanding the problems it would cause if GA was exempted.

To object on the basis that there should be cheaper technical solutions to the problems is voicing a suspicion, but without a solid basis of knowledge.

Can you help with a precis of the pro's and cons?

I wrote to my MP asking him to intervene to stop this silliness until someone has PROVED that GA needs Mode S, and that ATC will really use the information.

I got a load of twaddle back from the Ministry, telling me that Mode S is needed for TCAS (wrong! Mode C works just fine) and that GA was consulted. I've not yet managed to find anyone who thinks he/she was consulted - just a few who were "told" this is the way it's gonna be.

Mode S in its basic form does two things in a GA aircraft (compared with Mode C):

1. It provides more detail to Mode S enabled ATC radars - but there's only one of those so far, and when there are more, the Controllers will have to filter it all out again to avoid cluttering their screens beyond readability.

2. It enables Eurocontrol to know when you're flying so that you can be sent a bill for use of airspace. You think the air is free, and ours? WRONG!
You think VFR flights won't be billed? Want a bet?


You have about two weeks to write in and object. DO IT NOW! There's good information on the AOPA website to craft into a suitable letter.

What is 'notified TMA or En-route Mode S Airspace' (quote from the exemption policy for this proposal). Can I assume that 'notified' means whatever TMAs the CAA decide to include from time to time?

Well keef,

If the ministry think the reason Mode S is required is so TCAS will work, and they are making little planes put it in for that reason, the only logical conclusion is that they are going to force little planes to install TCAS too. Otherwise as is well known, Mode C will work perfectly well.

Thank God logical conclusions mean nowt to government departments, or in this case you can only hope so.

Doesn't the CAA say little planes shouldn't use Mode C in airport environments because it upsets people with TCAS???

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but no, TCAS doesn't work (completely) with Mode C. The airliners will get a TA (traffic advisory - tells the pilot there's traffic, but won't tell him what to do about it) if the traffic has Mode C, but not an RA (resolution advisory - which tells the pilot to climb or descend, after negotiating with the Mode S transponder in the other aircraft).

I want to make it clear that I do not think this is a valid reason for installing Mode S in all GA aircraft! But we need to get our facts right if we're going to complain.

As for not squawking Mode C, the only time I've ever heard this is when I've been told to squawk Standby when approaching airfields like White Waltham which lie on the edge of busy airspace - and that's to avoid cluttering up the ATC screens, not because of TCAS. But, having spoken to the controllers at Heathrow about this subject, I will now continue to squawk Mode C until I'm off the runway. I have been told not to squawk Mode A because of TCAS - I believe that pilots will be given a TA for any traffic in the same area if the traffic is squawking Mode A and not Mode C, even though the airliner is probably over 30,000 higher than the other traffic.

Apoligies if anything I've said in this thread is wrong... it's been about 6 months since I did the exams, and I've forgotten lots since then! I'm sure someone will put me right if necessary though...

FFF
---------------

FFF - perhaps I'm being a bit thick here, but I don't understand what the difference is.

If I get a Mode S transponder, the TCAS of an airliner coming the other way is able to chat to my Mode S transponder and find out what level I'm at, the same as Mode C. I can't see where the negotiation is going to come in, though, because I won't have TCAS. Sure, if both a/c have TCAS one can command a climb and the other a descent, but as I don't have it there's no negotiation to be done - my mode S transponder, if it's being honest, is just gonna shrug its shoulders.

Or am I missing something here?

fff

AIP ENR-1.6.2,

I think it is being amended, not sure whether it has come into force.

My understanding of TCAS, Mode C and Mode S is the same as Wrong Stuff's. I think we all should be using the term TCAS II in here, but that's just a nit-pick.

We are now being asked to keep squawking C all the way to the ground.

This is per a recent document which I have read, remembered, but forgotten exactly what the document was.

The present and urgent requirement is to be able to submit a credible objection to GA (light) having to buy expensive mode S equipment.

I have yet to look at the AOPA link mentioned, but it would help if those that know post on this forum a credible arguement.

bluskis

AOPA should be giving you the information, then you write to your MP, and as keef suggests you get ignored.

Not sure whether this is the link you are talking about, but it might interest some. One para says:"

So it isn't too far fetched that you get to pay thousands to install Mode S in your little planes, all the little planes overload the system, and you get told to turn it off :rolleyes:

Bluskis

The thread in ATC Issues, started by Bookworm:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=73769

Has a lot of info in it.

I particularly liked this quote (referring to the ground installations):

"Have taken some 'expert' advice on this now.

Mode 'S' will not appear anytime soon in UK. Although its essentially a software upgrade for the ATC radars the main UK radars require to be replaced (not only for mode 'S'). NATS had a 10 year plan to replace them all, but the cost is now £150million and with the HUGE debt NATS has the interest repayments have crippled that size of investment."

Another thing, your (GA) Mode S squawk will be "filtered", so no-one on the ground sees it in busy airspace - a bit like the filtering of 7000 today in some TMAs.

To filter something, you have to see and process it first, so you know you can ignore it :)

enhanced mode S
 

No one has asked the question "where dose the enhanced data for mode S come from ?"

If you all think that it will cost you a lot to go mode S then that is just the half of it !.

Enhanced mode S requires data inputs for HDG, TK , IAS , OAT , PX alt , the only way to get this is from an air data computor (ADC) these cost about $4000 this requires the HDG info from a slaved compass system that has a HDG bootstrap output and depending on the RMI system you may also need an inverter to boost the HDG syncro systen signal and then the whole thing needs linking to a top of the range GPS ( garmin GNS 430 or the like).

The down side to this is the cost , if you dont have a HSI I could see the bill hitting $15,000.

The up side is that the ADC will come with a fuel flow system and real time air data is at your finger tips , if you have the display space you will get a wind speed and direction arrow just like the airliners !.
In short the system is approaching the capabilitys of an airliner flight managment computor , and is hardly a requirement for a VFR trip across the channel.