Fine if your aircraft has an autopilot. I'm not advocating not using it at all. It's just that the vast majority of your normal club light aircraft don't have autopilots. I've flown a largish selection of different ones and have only flown one that has. And that didn't work when I wanted it to...I'm also pretty sure that your experienced friends would be quite capable and confident of flying without the autopilot in rough weather if they had to.

I wouldn't disagree with that at all. I just find it a little worrying that some posters who (I assume) have at least an IR(R) would find it uncomfortable flying in IMC without an autopilot. It's not the use of it that worries me, it's the lack of confidence they feel if they couldn't use it. I find that quite disturbing, and that is not an affront to their abilities, I'm sure they are capable pilots. It's the mindset that concerns me.

Edit: In the same way that I'm concerned about two pilots I know who will turn back, or even not take off if their Skydemon drops out. I use Skydemon all of the time unless pottering locally, however it's just a minor inconvenience if it stops operating as advertised. Five years ago we all flew perfectly well without it...

I'm with thing on this one.

As I see it new pilots are trained to be frightened of clouds and perhaps this makes many nervous even after getting IMC/IR ratings. It certainly took me some time to get over it. Now I am perfectly happy to fly a 6 hour leg in real IMC by hand. My aircraft only has a temperamental wing leveler.

IMHO if those who depend on autopilots turned them off and hand flew for a few tens of hours they would be just as relaxed.

I did a long day for Project Propeller last year consisting of IFR to Shoreham, NDB letdown, IFR to Church Fenton (Doncaster ILS cloudbreak), then back again. Round London in each direction I had to be in IMC due to the controlled airspace - oh, the irony - though on the long legs to Yorkshire I was mostly IFR on top in the sunshine, and we were able to duck through a hole and get into Shoreham VFR the second time. Final leg was VFR under the cloud base around 1500 to get back into my home base as ATC had closed and the ILS wasn't available. All this in a very bog standard (sorry A and C) PA28.

The dangerous bit? The VFR at the end. IFR in IMC without an autopilot really is no big deal; if IMCR/IR(R) holders can't do it they will quickly self-eliminate at their next renewal.

Oh, and PS, this doesn't count for CPL cross-country because it was IFR. More irony...

I remember that when I was learning to fly IMC the lesson periods were the most rewarding and most interesting exercises I had and I emerged a better flier for it. I would recommend it to anyone.

Disagree. For the IR(R) renewal you're probably mostly not in real cloud, and there are enough unconscious hints (eg, the sky is brighter than the ground, perhaps, but I haven't really analysed it) for me to keep the aircraft the right way up most of the time without doing the proper scan that's needed in real cloud.

Maybe it's the long legs I fly (100 miles is a short one and 400+ is more common) that makes me value the AP - just spend my time keeping clear of the clouds.

So down here - take off, AP's on at about 1,500ft, point airplane at other island, set alt hold at cruise height, switch tanks every half hour, keep away from clouds, switch off AP's when island spotted and land.

The clouds here tend to have bottoms at around 3,000ft and top out around 5,000 - some have CN columns growing out of them - I do keep away from those by several miles - tend to go over clouds as it is less bumpy (i.e not bumpy at all).

I am not saying one should not hand fly the airplanes, just that getting help from the AP when one gets into clouds makes sense - so long as the kit is properly maintained, one knows how to use it and one doesn't solely rely on it.

Still not liking them clouds:ooh:

Gertrude I think I disagree the other way. In real IMC you are seldom completely without any visual cues - e.g. as you say, it's brighter up than down, etc. Under a hood I find it hard to relax - it's uncomfortable and very restrictive of the view.

Shows we're all different, I guess!

I'm always saying it would be boring if we were all the same :)

Unless you were all like me. It would be a perfect world then.


;)

Romeo Tango


Deepest respect. I'm bowing deeply from the waist. I cannot begin to even imagine the sheer tedium of hand flying an a/c for six wearisome hours in clag and all the while not taking your eyes of the panel scan.


How anyone can even contemplate this much less maintain the level of concentration required is truly beyond my comprehension. How you do it I know not. If I was faced with a similar situation I'd shoot myself if I couldn't buy, borrow or steal an a/p !

I found when flying that lessons were far more enjoyable than general flying which, on the whole, was pretty boring.

I guess it's a matter of what you have to fly, and what you're used to. I used to hand fly two or three hour legs home, hard IFR, at night, often in winter icing, while my exhausted Captain "relaxed". I can't say I enjoyed it, but I signed up to fly, and that was the flying. The Aztecs did not have auto pilots. If I wanted to get home (let alone the employer expectation), the plane had to be hand flown. And, to be clear, that was old school panel - no HSI, no RMI, no RNAV... EFIS and GPS? Not thought of yet... It can be done, and was common "back then"....

Perhaps the basis of perception is different now....

Once you have trained your hind brain it does not require much concentration, it becomes a background reflex to keep straight and level with occasional course corrections. Of course just looking at water vapour for 6 hours is boring .... but usually it is made worthwhile when one gets to clear air and some breathtaking cloudscape.

Sometimes the weather is bad and there is a schedule to keep

Some people can watch TV for six hours at a stretch...I would rather stick pins in my eyes but I guess it's what they get used to. They don't get up and say 'My God that was boring.' Or maybe they do I wouldn't know.

6 hours inside a cloud is unusual .... but that is what the weather gods occasionally decree. No flight is the same, some are more interesting than others. One needs to be able to cope with what one gets.

Winter is what makes the summer nice.

"one needs to be able to cope with what one gets..."


So much easier with an autopilot !


I can see where we're going with this one. We need the application of a bit of Reductionist Theory here. Let's chuck out the AI/HSI/VSI/Turn Co-ordinator. Ebay beckons, plus a few quid.


Six inches of string glued to the inside of the windscreen with a nut tied to the end and we're in business ! Instead of being hypnotised by the scan, we can enjoy the hypnotic pendulum effect of our new cost effective auto pilot.


I might be able to do Cairo - Capetown nonstop with that kit - and solo or, has that already been done ?

I think you're missing the point here...no one is saying don't use the autopilot, if I flew a plane with a working autopilot I would use it myself on long legs. But being as I'm guessing the vast majority of people who fly GA fly aircraft without autopilots then we have to hand fly them in all conditions including long IMC legs and all the rest of it which you should, autopilot or not, be able to do easily and confidently. It's the lack of confidence in not using the autopilot which is the issue.

I think that I've got a kind of built in ability to frequently miss the point ! My attitude - forgive the pun - towards a/p's is that if the a/c has one then it might as well be used. It will fly the a/c much more precisely than any hand.


I fail to see any virtue in long spells of hand flying. Occasionally yes, to keep in good currency and practice. Of all the time spent aloft buried in clag, if 80% or thereabouts is spent on a/p and around 20% is given over to manual control, this I would have thought gives about the right balance for most.


I understand that my comments re the a/p have relevance only for the few GA a/c equipped with such and for those who frequently fly in marginal conditions.

Again please excuse my ignorance and please don't laugh but I didn't know small GA planes can have auto pilot. So how would that work on a plane such as a zenith 701 with a control column and how much would such kit cost?:8

If you contact Zenair (Google) in America, they'll have all the answers.