In the UK the only rule we have is that, for position reporting, 'Final' can be anywhere between 0 and 4 nm, and 'Long Final' anywhere between 4 and 8nm.

There is no official definition for 'Short Final' but it is commonly used to indicate that the call is being made much later than it would have been normally, in the same sense as 'Late Downwind'.

If someone called 'Short Final', I would expect them to be almost oner the threshold.


MJ:ok:

On the notion of "orbiting" this once happened in my early stages of the PPL landway under dual instruction.

Southend ATC instructed an orbit on the downwind leg.

So my instructor took the controls and did the orbit.

Watching some You Tube videos for a LGW Transit - there is an instruction similar to "Proceed to North Terminal Build and hold North of Runway xx".

The P1 then obliges.

Question - Would the "hold" be an orbit - and would the "orbit" be a 15 degree Angle of Bank rate 1 turn with the turn co-ordinator on the first notch?

Or are would a quick calculation have to be worked out to establish according to TAS what AoB is required subject to the speed you are flying?

Same question applies if instructed to orbit on downwind...

Scoobster

I don't think there is a set time for an orbit. You've got to consider the actual situation and the reason for the orbit. If it's to provide spacing for a departure of an aircraft, or to slot you in behind GA traffic, ATC may only need you to orbit for a minute or so. So something faster than a rate-one turn would be appropriate (say 30 degrees AoB at 100 knots). But if you need to orbit because there's an A380 landing, ATC may need to hold you for three minutes or even more. In that case a rate one (17 degrees AoB at 100 knots) would be more appropriate.

Like many here I would refuse such an instruction. They can't tell you not to go around FFS!

How would one expect to work this out?

At PPL I was told a Rate 1 turn is 30 degree AoB at 90-100 kts

So in this situation.. if instructed to orbit for 3 minutes.. I would (if i knew no better) -(will look this up in ATPL stuff also/calculations etc) -I would just orbit at 30 AoB for 3 minutes.

This would probably take me around quicker than the 3 minute mark.

Just a reminder I guess that you need greater awareness of the situation you are in.

S.

I would not let a student solo unless they knew what to do if asked to orbit, or go around, or "continue approach", or divert to an alternative aerodrome.

If asked by ATC to orbit on final, I would expect them to decline and go around instead. I would probably be beating the controller around the head at the same time.

Circuit joining
 

Don't bother overthinking orbits. Just choose a point on the ground and keep a constant turn around said object. Holds, however, are a different kettle of fish.

Just what I was thinking. When asked to orbit downwimnd by ATC, just circle over a landmark, at whatever angle of bank you would feel comfortable making any of the level turns in the circuit.

Same applies when asked to hold in a certain position whilst en route.

IFR holds are a different thing altogether.

The angle of bank to maintain a rate one turn increases with speed, and can be found by TAS/8 + 3, or TAS/10+7. depending on who taught you. (Around 15 degrees in most light aircraft.)

You are not expected to calculate this whilst in flight for your actual speed though. Just have a rough Idea what it is, then adjust it slightly to achieve rate one on the Turn Indicator/Turn Coordinator.


MJ:ok:

As a footnote orbiting should not be conducted in the circuit at an aerodrome without an ATSU as, apart from being potentially hazardous with respect to traffic following in the circuit, to do so is not "conforming with the pattern of traffic".

As regards how to fly an orbit what's wrong with a medium level turn with circa 30 degrees of bank?

(Jez I never knew this flying was so complicated)

My thiughts exactly, Bob.

PPRune is a great place to find out what you have been missing! ;)


MJ:ok:

Scoobster, you were told wrong!

The basic rule of thumb for angle of bank for a Rate 1 turn is to take the airspeed, knock of the last digit, and add 7.

Eg IAS 100 kts, delete the right hand zero and add seven equal 17 degrees of bank.

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. All this talk of orbits at a little tiny airport in a little tiny airplane are more work than making an orbit of the earth in a spacecraft.

When we teach people to fly here, we include such things as turns about a point (u guys might call it an orbit), S turns along a road (which can be used in a traffic pattern to space traffic out) and other maneuvers.

I wouldn't solo someone who couldn't do a 360 on downwind, or S turns on final. I also make darn sure they would know what to do if the airport runway was blocked immediately after the student's takeoff.


I've done S turns or 360's in pipers to jets and you know what? They are all the same. Safe airspeed, bank angle at a conservative degree and keep your head moving and your mind moving.

Two planes, little airport, radios working and all this fuss.

Wow, quite some confusion here around, but this orbiting thing starts to fear me. When at a controlled airport, tower may ask to do a 360, yes, but usually before entering traffic pattern at beloved holding pattern location, or if something goes wrong and they don't see an issue on downwind, BUT neither ever orbit on base, nor final, nor at an uncontrolled airfield - Jesus, that is simply one thing, dangerous! I never heard of a control tower suggesting orbit in final, you are LOW and the options are landing or go around.

I kind of remember that "orbit" usually involves a 2 minute standard 360, as we all learned in training and frequently train, don't we?

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

ON a 3 mile final, a plane may be almost 1000'

How is making a turn about a point or just a 360 dangerous?

now, if someone told you to do a circle at 200', maybe not, but come on

skyhighfallguy, all good stuff I am sure but those items are not in the syllabus for the licences in the UK. Operation at "minimum level" is in the syllabus which would include turns/orbits at that height.

When in Rome do as the Romans.

ChickenHouse, maybe in your part of the world but not here in the UK (or indeed Europe as far as I am aware).

thanks for pointing out that the UK doesn't teach that stuff. Good to know.

glad to also know you have heard of such things. I remember our sylabus at the 141 school demanded s turns, turns about a point and rectangular patterns all under the banner of "GROUND REFERENCE MANEUVERS".

carry on then, just be careful, sounds like your tool box is a little light over there.

What problem do they solve? - genuinely curious.

I do refer to my PPL training, which was indeed in Germany. I am pretty sure the tower where I learned would have shot me right away while still in the air when I would try to attempt 360 on final ... have to confirm next time I see these guys.

Me too. As far as I am aware, Ground Reference Maneuvers are a requirement unique to the US.

skyhighfallguy, I can assure you it isn't!

ChickenHouse, that is another issue about which I would agree. Your post implied that there was only one way of conducting an "orbit" which is not the case - it all depends why and in what situation you are "orbiting".

There were another 3 planes behind me in the circuit, so 5 planes in the sky. The 3 behind me were late downwind, downwind and climb out.

Also turning right in a LH circuit is something I was taught is a big no-no by my instructors.

I think when Bob said that those items are not in the syllabus here, he mant that they are not specifically included, but covered under another exercise. 'Operation/navigation at minimum level' includes direction reversals over line features with a crosswind, whilst maintaining balance against the illusion created by the drift, which amounts to the same thing.

Perhaps the main difference here is that this is considered to be an advanced, rather than a basic exercise, and not covered prior to solo.

Your instructors were quite right, Dan. That is not just not 'conforming to the pattern of traffic', but specificly prohibited by the rules.


MJ:ok:

MJ, thanks - that is what I did mean - been another long day!

After a sightseeing tour along the beach at St. Petersburg, Florida, joined the pattern at Albert Whitted Airport, and was on final approach for 36 - in a rented Cessna 172. Tower asked me nicely could I do an orbit for slow traffic that was ahead of me on approach; he mentioned there were two experimental aircraft flying in formation.

Sure enough, there they were, flapping along at about 30 knots. So I did a leisurely 360, giving them plenty of time to get out of the way. Straightened up again on approach, and ..... the little bogies had disappeared! where did they go to? should have been on the ground by now, I looked at 36, no, nobody there.....and then I looked to my right, and there they were, only this time they were on final on 27....

"Hey," I said to the Tower, "You've changed the runway!"

Tower replied "We wondered when you would notice....."

Love it. They are laid back in Dixie, that's for sure. Y'all go careful, now!

Always happy to help, Bob. We Limeys have to stick together! ;)


MJ:ok:

Ps. Dan, It's good to see you are still with us after 8 pages. Most OPs would have lost the will to live by now! :D

chillindan

really, you would never make a right turn in a left hand pattern? ever?

so, let's say you were on base leg and encountered another plane head on? he had made a mistake and was making right traffic to the same runway you were making (correctly) left hand traffic.

you were head on, you wouldn't turn right under any circumstance? two planes head on should both turn right in my part of the world. (assuming all else was equal)

IF you turned left and he kept turning right wouldn't you end up pretty close?

Wombat and others: what do they solve? It gives you a keen awareness of the wind. Compensating for the wind to achieve a ground track that is desired. As in the case of a rectangular pattern associated with a traffic pattern. Not understanding the wind might make you overbank to hurry a turn, instead of planning ahead. Overbanking/steep turning in the traffic pattern might put you closer to a stall.

IF you are not aware of wind and you simply make 90 degree heading changes to make a traffic pattern, the wind will drift you away making a pattern that doesn't really look rectangular.

Circling an object on the ground allows for observation, simply maintaining a bank angle will cause you to drift away and not allow for observation of something on the ground (like a wind sock).

Some pilots never really understand how the ground speed changes over the course of a simple rectangular pattern. I can't imagine a pilot really having a feel for the plane and maneuvering in a prescribed fashion without practicing ground reference maneuvers.

Other reasons to turn right in a left circuit might include overtaking, or simply leaving the circuit.

Never say never, Sky.

The rule says all turns must be to the left, but in an emergency avoiding a collision takes presedence.


Aircraft shouldn't overtake others in the circuit, and aircraft leaving the circuit should either climb straight ahead out of the circuit, or follow the circuit around until they are facing the direction they want to go.


MJ:ok:

Next time I'm in a twin on the downwind leg and I come across a flexwing microlight immediately in front of me, I'll remember not to overtake.

And next time I'm in an empty circuit with time to waste and fuel to burn I'll keep going round in circles.

Chillindan

To the best of my recollection , I may have been one of the 5 in the circuit , I heard an aircraft call and advise joining long final , and eventually observed two aircraft , one had turned base and became final , the long final aircraft approaching straight in , and eventually observed two aircraft in trail but apart , I was on the downwind leg and could see both at all times , it only needs a bit of speed control and distancing to allow adequate spacing in this situation – it certainly didn't appear to me to be anything more than usual weekend busy circuit traffic , if in doubt about spacing or positioning I'd opt for a go around myself or depart the circuit and re-join , which is what appeared to happen in this case.

I seem to see something different every time I fly, and then learn from it, if in doubt about something, I’ll always ask one of my former instructors for advice or opinion,
I’m no longer a student.

This is a good thread with plenty of info/opinion being given with regard the original question posted.

Chillindan continue to enjoy your flying J

I trust that when you leave the circuit you will be able to do so without turning against the traffic pattern.....

"really, you would never make a right turn in a left hand pattern? ever?"

In that situation I would turn to the right.

What I'm learning as a new PPL is that I encounter new things all the time. Things I hadn't done during training, or things that surprise me. I departed the circuit at the end of downwind, which I'd not done before, I joined dead side at circuit height because the cloud base was low. I am always speaking to my previous instructors about things that are new because I realise that although newly qualified i am certainly still a student. There are so many things I haven't done because I've barely done anything except the syllabus yet. I've taken passengers now, that was new, and I'm hoping to fly into a controlled airport next week, something I only did once during my training and then only dual.

I'm loving the debate on here and didn't think my question would spark so many contrasting answers, which makes me glad i did.

It used to be quite a common ATC instruction at EGHH if the controller needed time to think. I have often carried out 3 or 4 opposite direction orbits at the end of the downwind leg.

I wondered whether that was the motivation.

I was taught that stuff as a natural part of being taught to fly the circuit, particularly the base to final turn, and I can apply it elsewhere if/when I need to. It just wasn't a separate exercise.

Orbits away from the runway are common in an ATC environment.

Of course it's ok to do this downwind, when requested in a controlled environment.

Not at an uncontrolled airfield though.


MJ:ok:

mach jump you can do a circle at an uncontrolled field, good practice would say to advise local traffic on the radio that you are circling on downwind or making S turns on final.

love the way you guys talk! Dead Side of the traffic pattern. We don't call it that.


On a busy day at a local ATC field, there can be a huge amount of traffic in the pattern and waiting to depart the pattern. ATC will often ask downwind traffic to extend downwind to allow for departures. They have even asked to fly through final on base leg and rejoin downwind on the opposite side.

AS to departing the pattern, departing the upwind leg (takeoff leg) on a 45degree turn is normal. Departing the pattern in an overhead 270 is normal. Departing on the downwind is normal. And just departing ON COURSE is normal to. All with advisory on radio/ctaf or via ATC instruction.

WE all keep our landing lights on in the pattern to help increase our visibility. Wondering of the OP did traffic on final have his landing light on?DID YOU?

We will even have aircraft flash their landing light (daytime too) to help sort out who is who.

Wombat, do you ever practice descending spirals around a point, keeping a constant distance from the point? Do you ever circle an airport at altitude well above pattern altitude to observe wind sock at an airport with no communications?

All are important tools of the trade. The spiral for emergency landings, or for use when only the airport is clear of clouds.

Not over here, Sky. Not that it stops people doing just that! I've met such aircraft head on downwind and final, several times now!

What do you call it?

A small, but significant proportion of aircraft still fly 'non-radio' at uncontrolled airfields here. Is it the same there?


MJ:ok:

just to clarify mach jump, is there a regulation in england that says: no circles on downwind?

or is it just accepted procedure?

MJ , if LEFT pattern was standard, we would refer to the other side as RIGHT PATTERN.

vice versa.

While left hand pattern is usual for many airports, it is not always the case. But we never call it the dead side.