I think there is consensus that the Falke is not the world's best glider - indeed that motor gliders in general need a pretty good lift day to go any distance sans moteur. On the other hand, as compromises go they have a lot to commend them. Low operating costs compared to most other forms of flying, great touring capability and some nice handling usually feature.

I'm not sure whether EFATO in a TMG is worse than a cable-break; there's certainly more time to think than in yer average SEP. Whether to land ahead, land away or attempt the impossible turn are all options in any aircraft. The outcome must surely be significantly down to currency and training which hopefully will - to use the vernacular - inform the decision-making process.

Been away for a couple of days, so first chance to look at thread. Thank you all very much for your opinions and advice, some really interesting replies, which have given me food for thought.

I think I'll book a trial lesson initially, (although I understand now why they are elevated in price, but it will give me a good chance to assess the club before continuing). Also, as suggested by some, I will also endeavour to try both traditional and motor gliding.

Can I ask one more question? The human body requires supplemental oxygen around 10,000 feet - how can you soar to 20,000 feet plus, and remain conscious? (assuming no OX2 or pressurisation).

Thanks once again :ok:

Here in Canada I needle folks that you can get your Glider licence without ever talking with ATC:\

Now I've seen instructor courses with a number of candidates without so much as a Silver Badge:uhoh:

You can't.

All high altitude glider flights use supplemental oxygen, typically nasal cannulas from about 12,000' up to about 20,000' and oxygen masks with diluter demand, pressure-breathing regulators above that.

It may be worth adding that some clubs include 3 months membership in the price of a trial flight, so you can enjoy some flying at club rates before you have to pay for a full years membership.

As a guide my local club offers trial lessons for £75 which would include two winch launches. The same two 10 minute winch launch flights would cost about £28 in total at club rates.

Definitely mention your experience. There are different levels of instructor. Someone will correct me, but I believe that basic instructors are not allowed to give the pupil control below 500ft and that isn't what you want!

No need to correct you as you are correct on both counts!

I always think 'foot into the gap' ie put a boot into the biggest hole.

Give gliding a go, it has it's frustrations but for one the view is magnificent, a quantum leap above what you will be used to and it requires more pure flying skills than powered. Think of sailing a yacht and driving a powerboat.

I would add the caveat that personalities are important at gliding clubs. At a powered club you spend (unless you choose to) far less time with the membership whereas at a GC you may be spending all day with someone that you wouldn't urinate on if they were combusting. It can try your patience at times as any club of any pastime will have the 'club fathers' who reign by divine right. Mind you, I've been a member of a powered club that was just the same.

One question from me :) How do glider pilots keep warm on high altitude flights ?
Are there heaters? Surely at altitudes of even 10K to 20K the OAT could be minus 20 or less and sitting stationery for hours surely it would get pretty chilly?
Or is there different dress sense for the levels you will fly at ?

Pace

Sitting beneath a wrap round piece of perspex has it's benefits but you need to dress for it. I did my silver duration (five hours minimum flight, and I've never figured out what that is supposed to prove other than the limits of your bladder) on a scorching hot day in August many years ago and by the time I landed I was like a block of ice. Hadn't gone that high either.

Five hours.....
Proves that you can stay focused, and make a safe landing when tired, normally at your home site. At least that's the story I got. Makes some sense, or at least it did in the past where low performance gliders landed out rather more often than we now seem to, and a 300km triangle could last six or seven hours.

I don't think mine proved anything more than inbuilt stubborness, as I did it on a ridge in an elderly glider with an open cockpit in a howling gale. Low cloud base, rain showers, didn't really enjoy it at the time. Ended up flying over six hours waiting for the wind to drop enough to make a safe circuit. Still, it doubled my solo time on gliders for the price of one bungy launch.

Mary, I'm a Falke flyer some of the time. Makes sense in a small club midweek. I turn the engine off as soon as we are going up halfway decently, because to get an old small engine Falke to go up at any decent rate off climb needs a thermal, which is prolly better than the engine anyway.

Pace - I had noticed that nobody had answered your question.

I'm not an expert; my experience of such matters is limited to a fortnight of gliding over the last three years in the Pyrenees mountains in Spain with a dozen or so flights of 3hrs duration up to an altitude of 13,000ft using mountain wave.

Yes - it can be very very chilly at altitude - even at ground level - it may be cold enough to maintain snow.

Flying at altitude - most people find that feet & hands are the first parts of the body to get cold and numb.

• Solar radiation

Some gliders have an extended canopy that makes sure that the sun reaches everywhere from the feet to the head. Also best to wear dark colours. You will be amazed at how hot it can be sitting in what is effectively a greenhouse. Although, with typically less than 1cm between flesh and atmosphere - the top may be warm enough - but the rear can be cold...

• Blankets

Quite a few of the female pilots I know carry a blanket which they can put over them when they start feeling the cold. Mary.M has also said as much in a previous post somewhere on this site. I don't know many male pilots that admit to carrying blankets. Although, I know of at least one that carries a blanket "just in case he has to sleep in the glider waiting for a retrieve" - he won't admit to using it in flight though.

• Jackets/Suits

There are custom designed suits for gliding/paragliding etc... that are designed for easy movement in confined spaces in sub-zero temperatures with the ability to unzip various parts.
Clothing, gloves and boots for glider pilots, paragliders, hang gliders

• Heated Motorcycle Clothing

For the very serious - kitting oneself out with heated glove inserts or heated socks or heated jackets from the motorcycle shops. Some of the motocycle gear now is extremely light, flexible, and can be powered by small portable batteries for very reasonable amounts of time.
7V heated products - Gerbing: Leading in Heated Clothing
However, heated clothing does divide people at the club bar where there are those that think heated clothing is the next sliced bread and those that like pointing out the virtues of Li-ion batteries and their ability to combust when impacted and therefore, Li-ion batteries should be banned. I've always considered that if any of my Li-ion batteries are impacted enough to ignite - I'll be in a whole heap of pain and Li-ion batteries will be the least of my worries. However, the RC model flyers have flame-proof Li-ion battery bags - and having Li-ion batteries in locations easy to reach and easy to jettison I believe should be enough.

The glider doesn't come with a heater in the same way a SEP or Microlight may have. I've only heard about heated clothing.

If your not into heated clothing - there is the standard trick of multiple layers. Typically - it is hottest while waiting on the ground with the canopy closed for the aerotow to start. The trick is to have an idea what the temperature should be at the altitude your expecting to fly at. Glider pilots will have that info from the morning briefing anyway from the daily sounding charts. You put on as many layers as you believe is necessary and have as many layers with front zips as possible with maybe a few layers with zip-on sleeves etc... You sit on appropriate impact foam and parachute to insulate the body from the glider fuselage. Then as you climb - you start doing up the zips one layer at a time etc... This is manageable as in wave at high altitude its as smooth as silk and you can loosen the straps enough to do this.

Hope this helps.

Keeping warm in a glider
 

Best way to keep warm in a glider in the winter is to fly the tug instead!
(which has a nice heater)....

But seriously, I did the altitude flying at Aboyne over 3 seasons....and never got that uncomfortable, didn't stay up all that long, and was lucky in having sunshine available. Though flying back and forth along the higher wave bar, found it interesting that one side of the glider canopy iced up completely, the other side was getting all the sun so viz was fine on the left side but rather doubtful on the right. A banana in the cockpit pocket (lunch) froze solid.

The year before, was swanning about at 15,000 or so, and because the glider had stayed out overnight and the wingtape got wet, the ailerons wouldn't move, they were frozen. So did very careful turns with the rudder alone, eventually descending to warmer levels.

The diamond gain of height to 20,300 was enough of the upper levels for me, I get nervous having to depend on oxygen systems. For cross country flying, especially in competitions, one tends to work the height band of thermals between 2,000' and 5,000', using cloud streets if possible. Temperatures are quite comfortable at these levels....and the baby blanket is handy if it does get chilly. Flying in the winter is OK especially if there is sunshine.

But standing around on a windy airfield in winter can get very very cold if you are not properly dressed.

I generally found the cockpit temperature not too bad at altitude, due to the greenhouse effect of the canopy, although I was wearing multiple layers of warm clothing.

The big issue was feet getting cold, since they were in the (leaky) nose cone. I solved that by wearing Arctic boots, although you have to check that they don't cause rudder-pedal obstructions.

One of the unforeseen issues of wave flying in the summer is trying not to sweat too much while waiting to launch. Nothing worse than frozen sweaty clothes. Delay putting on the layers until the last minute.

.
As for freezing feet in wooden gliders, I found that duct-taping the aero-tow hole stopped that flow of cold air onto your muddy wellies...
Fibre-glass gliders are a bit better sealed.

But sod's law states that your ginormous gain of height comes off a winch launch in tee shirt and shorts, and no barograph....

Similarly, when you tog up for altitude, you beat the tug back to the field.

It's remarkable at altitude how the cockpit temperature goes from being comfortably (or even uncomfortably) warm in sunshine to :mad:cold in cloud shadow. Electric insoles inside moonboots are very effective, a 1 minute burst every 15 or so keeps feet warm.

The coldest glider I found was the SHK, with quite a small canopy for sun-warmth and a very thin non-structural fibreglass nose. That was a foot-freezer at 18,000ft. Thermal underwear with layers are (as has been said earlier) the way to go.

As a lifetime non-smoker I have always been OK up to 14,000ft or so without supplementary oxygen, and higher on short rapid climb and descent; flying in Spouth Africa all day at 10K to 16K an EDS system means I don't get a headache after flying (and increases the alcohol liimit).

Always the way CISTRS! Went for a quick trip on lunchtime up on the ridge in shorts and t-shirt, ended up coming down about 4 hours later after getting into wave. Well, you're not going to not use it are you! :ok:

OB

Yes, I'm in the habit of excess clothing on the ground. But there can be days when it's still hot in the air.

That's when you tuck under a cu for the shade;)