I was fortunate to accompany a friend in an Aeronca Chief, on several occasions. On one of our "doss-abouts" he stood it on it's ear and did a 360, culminating in a jiggle as we flew through our own wake....it wasn't a fluke, he could do it at will (as I remember, it was a "still-air" day.:) My attempt....crank it over, pull back and a bit of opposite rudder....nowhere near...but there was no mush, buffet or other untoward feedback. Happy days, Armstrong starting and an Icom handheld...when he got a portable intercom.....LOOXURY!

Vortices only occur when the wing is loaded. At the top of a loop the wing is very lightly loaded, maybe even zero loading if the loop is ballistic. So vortices would be negligible or absent. But I guess if there are any, they'd go down relative to the wing, so 'up' relative to the ground!

Hangar flying
 

When I took my instructor's check ride, the FAA guy asked for the typical Lazy Eight and chandelle demos. Lazy Eight met his approval, but he didn't like my chandelle. "Stall warner was sounding for 5-10 seconds solid" - well, yes, that was how we did them. So I asked what he wanted. "Just an occasional beep" was his goal.

I said "Can I do it again?" - and he was satisfied this time.

The difference, of course, was that I had been practicing recovery with a bit of burble - itself a reliable stall warning in a C150 (or in all the other light singles I had been flying). Attitude and feel = old school. The examiner was of the "by the numbers" school and expected his candidate instructors to follow suit.

But I think he respected the fact I could adapt, and demo both styles.

Hi Barit1, the Lazy8 is not taught over this side of the pond, either in PPL or Basic Aerobatics... Which is a bit of a shame.
We also don't seem to do 'Turns about a Pole' which is another of your favourites, (especially in a crosswind).

The lazy eight is valuable because you are continually moving in all three axes; nothing is static! You learn the flow of the maneuver - up, roll, yaw, reverse roll, back to S&L... :)

Barit1

I'm one of those guys who never understood the need for a Lazy 8 in training, nor any benefit it might provide in my future as a professional pilot in any airplane under any circumstances. After almost 47 years, my opinion has not changed, and the fact that it is not required in some areas of the world with resulting capable pilots seems to confirm my suspicions. :cool:

Pylon 8's? Yes. Good value to becoming proficient in those.

Ah. Yes, now I understand what you are saying, once you say start the turn abeam the threshold. We call that a PTU here, prise de terrain en U. But there is no need to work out the angles, it is simply a U turn, half a circle with bank angle varying to adjust for the wind. Not an unusual technique when teaching proper stick and rudder flying and, dare I mention it, judgement.

What's plyon 8's?

I agree on the lazy 8's did them once they are just a coordination exercise with nothing really gained for the real world.

I have never felt I have missed out by not doing them properly. The time could be better spent flying the aircraft without any instruments through a series of trimming in different configuration exercises just setting everything up by ear and attitude.

Whilst model flying, I used to be able to do half a dozen lazy8s, continuously one after the other. The trick was to use 80% of 'cruise power' so that there was no height lost or gained.


Also the same 80% power was useful for holding a continuous Dutch Roll on the model plane... I have not tried a Dutch Roll in a full size Cessna, I can only imagine it would spin out on the first excursion.

Dutch roll? That's not a manouvre, is it? I understood it to be an undesireable flight characteristic of an aeroplane with insufficient yaw stability, cured by fitting a yaw damper?

I found PA38s do it in rough air.

Dutch Roll is a coupling of lateral with directional stability driven by sideslip. Pretty much any aeroplane will do it, most can be induced to do it deliberately by a sinusoidal yaw input called a "rudder doublet" and many will do it in turbulence. Many birds deliberately induce then damp it as a means of making rapid heading changes, although we don't use it deliberately in aeroplanes.

A yaw damper is the most common fix in more complex aeroplanes to eliminate unwanted DR. It's not the fix you'd normally use in a small aeroplane, where you'd more likely change the shape or size of the fin.

G

http://img1.pictaero.com/2008/02/11/s/5428.jpg

If you don't want to fit a yaw dampener you can just design a really stupid looking aircraft instead.

To fly the Dutch Roll (in model flying) I used to get the plane flying away from myself at 80% power, with almost fully back on the stick, to give a high nose attitude slow flight. Then a quick dab of rudder would make the plane bank 40-60deg to the left, followed by the same to the right, then to the left... etc etc. The only Input I had was to hold the stick almost right back to hold the altitude. Release the back pressure before the model went out of sight... and then RTB.
It is true that the flight path is stable, the plane keeps flying in a straight line.. Just wobbling R+L+R+L....


btw Jock.. What is a Yaw Dampener? Is it an Electronic Gizmo Box of tricks, or something mechanical.

Yaw dampeners used to be simple fluid dynamic "computers" (either pneumatic or hydraulic*) tuned to counter the airplane's natural period. Today on big jets they're probably just a chip or two on the FBW system.

* Analogous to the hydromechanical engine fuel control of past decades...

On the aircraft I have flown with such devices it's called a Yaw Damper rather than "dampener"!

Depends which country the manual is written what its called.

mad_jock:

Eights on pylons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have survived with out doing them either.

...and I can survive without Scotch, but I choose not to. :D

Dear god Scotch that's another dirty habit.

Try single malt whisky instead.

Have two or three bottles of the nectar in the cabinet.

Honestly what does it bring to the final product. And what real life situation does it equip you for.

I've used the technique of pivoting the wingtip on a point on the ground during a search to get a better view of the object on the ground. It also demonstrates the pilot's ability to fly the aircraft while focusing his attention outside the aircraft. Its actually fun when done in a brisk wind, as altitude will change with a change in groundspeed. Depending on speed, initial entry altitude will be around 800' AGL.

More of the AFH description, below, is available online, if desired.

From the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook:

EIGHTS-ON-PYLONS (PYLON EIGHTS)
The pylon eight is the most advanced and most diffi-
cult of the low altitude flight training maneuvers.
Because of the various techniques involved, the pylon
eight is unsurpassed for teaching, developing, and test-
ing subconscious control of the airplane.
As the pylon eight is essentially an advanced
maneuver in which the pilot’s attention is directed
at maintaining a pivotal position on a selected pylon,
with a minimum of attention within the cockpit, it
should not be introduced until the instructor is assured
that the student has a complete grasp of the fundamentals.
Thus, the prerequisites are the ability to make a coordi-
nated turn without gain or loss of altitude, excellent feel of
the airplane, stall recognition, relaxation with low altitude
maneuvering, and an absence of the error of over
concentration.
Like eights around pylons, this training maneuver also
involves flying the airplane in circular paths, alter-
nately left and right, in the form of a figure 8 around
two selected points or pylons on the ground. Unlike
eights around pylons, however, no attempt is made to
maintain a uniform distance from the pylon. In eights-
on-pylons, the distance from the pylons varies if there
is any wind. Instead, the airplane is flown at such a
precise altitude and airspeed that a line parallel to the
airplane’s lateral axis, and extending from the pilot’s
eye, appears to pivot on each of the pylons. [Figure 6-
10] Also, unlike eights around pylons, in the perform-
ance of eights-on-pylons the degree of bank increases
as the distance from the pylon decreases.
The altitude that is appropriate for the airplane being
flown is called the pivotal altitude and is governed by
the groundspeed. While not truly a ground track
maneuver as were the preceding maneuvers, the objec-
tive is similar—to develop the ability to maneuver the
airplane accurately while dividing one’s attention
between the flightpath and the selected points on the
ground.

Don't be mad, Jock. Try it. You might like it. :cool:

Not mad more amused.

Nah your ok the punters in the back would wonder if I was drunk.

Doing that in The UK would in most places get your reported for low flying.

And the places where you could do it without annoying anyone there aren't any pylons.

Teknow - once you've refreshed, please consider a taildragger conversion. You'll be absolutely amazed at what a good instructor can teach you in Cub / Chippy / Tiger etc and you'll find your flying much more rewarding than the 'sand menage' stuff you've done to date. No offence intended of course!

Funny how taildragger flying can be so joyful and rewarding after the initial apprehension of hearing the horror stories, learning the basics and perfecting the handling and idiosyncrasies of the different types.

I havent flown anything but taildraggers since my endorsement.:ok:

I suppose at this point I must tell you of my first solo, whilst doing my PPL at Hawarden, North Wales.


Traditionally an Ex 14. is just a quick Take-Off, Circuit and Landing, having learnt enough to do all the climbs and turns by the numbers....


Well, I got as far as the downwind leg; 'G-DB downwind to land', when ATC said 'G-DB take up position at end of downwind leg and orbit right for the Baluga on a seven mile final.'


Orbits where a new thing to me, but how hard could it be....... So after the third orbit, I noticed the ditch-bridge that I had been orbiting was disappearing into the distance. So not wanting to make the flight a cross-country I started to alter the bank angle... Which worked...


I landed (after the wake turbulence delay, and about six orbits.) and clocked up 25 minutes flight time for Exercise 14.... Its all good fun...

I would have ensured the student had done orbits before getting sent out. I would have also asked if anything was due in the next 20 mins and delayed it until it was clear.

If I may be so bold as to drag the thread (kicking and screaming) back to the title "Stall warning and when to panic" - the answer is 'never'. You may have one engine out and another on fire, but panicking will not help.

35 years ago when flight instructing in Cessnas, etc I always had them do a power on stall in a right climbing turn. This frequently because of inadequate rudder put them over the top into a left spin. I wanted them to see how easy it was to get into but more importantly how easy to recover.

Fearing a spin is only because you never did one.