thing - ditto!

BPF - apologies for contributing to the group of people whose lives are ruined by aviation. It's the collateral damage to the families I worry about, briefly. Then I get over it.

Then there was the towpilot some decades ago who let me in the back seat of an L-19. After the glider released he let me get it back to the field and got lulled by the nicely managed descent to downwind and base leg.

Unfortunately turning base and slowing with some flap, my stick came out (it had been helpfully put into the socket without setting the retaining pin at some undetermined time:mad:) and the nose dropped to our great alarm. The front seat definitely had control.

Much better then than in the flare:\

Surely the easiest way to settle this is for someone in-the-know to provide (or not) a list of prosecutions for GA pilots letting passengers have a go?

Have there been any specifically for this? If not, there can't be an issue, given the large number of times it happens openly.

Since it's entirely legal in UK, there are are no such prosecutions here. Best not to complicate what is a very straightforward situation.

As I suspected. Thanks.

Is the "Mile High Club" an illegal organisation? Comments?

It's against nature in an Emeraude:=

D.O.

I'll need to give that some engineering thought.
Austin Frog eye Sprite door pull straps & high heels spring to mind:ok:

Why have you NEVER allowed anyone to? Contrary to what a lot of pilots would like to believe, it's not particularly hard to control an aeroplane, especially in day VMC. Even if you do (horror of horrors) allow someone to fly, who are these bogeymen that are waiting to string you up?

Also - two years to learn how to work a transponder?! :confused:

I could probably train my dog to do it in that timescale.

What a shame that so many have not experienced the satisfaction of seeing someone who has never flown before handle the controls and feel the aircraft respond. Seeing the mile wide smile on their face when they realise it was them flying.

Some are nervous at first but it only takes a few minutes with some very basic instruction to see them relax. Others, often the kids, are total naturals and can do level turns to plus or minus 50ft right from the start.

Thats what started me flying. There may have been a twenty year gap but the seed was planted. I'll never forgive him. I might have been well off by now:)

D.O.

Last year at the fly in, speaking to one of the firemen he asked "Any chance of going up?" No problem, let me finish my coffee, " !!!!! I didn't think you would say that, I've never flown in anything in my life, the wife wants to go to Spain & I'm terrified".
Upshot, he enjoyed every minute, couldn't believe he had actually done it, filmed himself over half of East Fife, tried the controls, asked what would happen if the engine stopped, we did a PFL towards Crail til he could understand we would make it. First time, in a 53 yr old taildragger off a grass strip. The smile said it all.

(Peers carefully around the corner........he's really gone this time? Oh good!).

Didn't want to upset him by telling him that as a PPL(B) holder (but not an instructor) not only it is legal for me to allow my pax on the burners but also if they are in training for them to book the hours towards their totals needed for their GFT and annotate their logbook to boot.

When EASA licences replace out CAA ones in 2015, of course, this training privilege will be removed, but think how much safer it will be after the zero incidents caused by such behaviour over the last 40 years....:ugh:

Fly safe and enjoy it,

Ripline

Well, if it wasn't for "having a go" I probably would never have flown anything. Most thrilling thing I've ever done was flying my first simple aeros in a Pitts. Not quite as scary as bungee jumping, but I only did one of those.

:ok:

Yeah, but all you have to do when bungee jumping is switch off your brain, trust the organisers, and leap. In aeros, you need to apply your brain, do it yourself, and get it right or it'll end in tears!

Ha ha! Yes...I remember messing up one manoeuvre, and fully expected my pal in the back seat (instructor) to say "My control". What he actually said as we went inverted was "What you gonna do about that, then?"

Like you said (partly), apply brain, work it out, fly the plane. Getting it as technically right as it was possible for me to do was half the fun and challenge.

I hasten to add I had flown with him many times, and we were well over two mistakes high.

"work it out for yourself" is an excellent thing to say to another pilot, when you know that things are still well within your capability to recover, so you don't need to - yet. I have done this many times.

The parallel for a non pilot, is "you're doing fine, just a little more...". I have had non pilots land the plane quite nicely a few times while coaching them through. They were neatly on the surface before they realized that they should be scared, 'cause they are about to land. This works much better on a frozen lake, with miles of landing surface in all directions though, and with me minding the throttle to actually control the rate of sink!

I've never had a problem with this.

My only problem ever was with a passenger to whom I had never intended to give control. He was mentally disadvantaged, and decided to take control, with great force. It was a sudden go around, with near aerobatics to climb away. I was quite concerned about damaging the flight control mechanism, while over powering him. It worked out okay, though this is why there are only dual controls in either of my planes, when I actually intend that the other person might fly.

Obviously you are more qualified than most of us to install and remove the controls, being a DAR yourself. But for the rest of us:

- How do schools, clubs, syndicates and groups regard the action of removing the controls from the RHS if you are flying with a passenger you don't quite trust?
- What is the legal perspective on this? Are you legally allowed to do so as a pilot, or only, for instance, if the procedures are listed in the POH and are thus designed to be executed by the pilot?
- And practically speaking, what can I expect? Of course it would depend on the aircraft, but would there be a quick release or some serious bolt and spanner work involved?

I have never ever seen the RHS controls removed from an aircraft, so just curious.

Backpacker,

Transport Canada "Elementary Work" says that the pilot may (without requiring a mechanic):

(20) removal and replacement of co-pilot control levers, wheels, pedals and pedal guard plates that are designed for rapid removal and replacement, on other than transport category aircraft;

It is convenient for me that both my aircraft are so arranged, as many aircraft are not (for example Cessna182 and 206, which are darn near impossible to remove either controls).

It's worth a look through your national regulations to understand pilot privileges. It is "elementary work": which allows pilots to do other simple tasks, like changing oil and spark plugs to mention just a few.

Yeah, I thought as much. And I would assume the same would be true in other countries.

Further to this, does anybody have a list of the more common GA aircraft types and models where this is the case?

All I know is that the GA-8 Gippsland Airvan has a comment in it that no passenger should be allowed in the RHS unless the controls are removed, but there are no instructions in the POH how to remove the controls, and I don't remember seeing any quick-releases either. For common types like the PA28, C172, DR400 I don't think quick removal is an option either.

It certainly is still running. I read in various aviation publications about events taking place quite often. The EAA membership continues to support this program in a substantial manner.

Now as to the original question posed as it applies within the USA:

There is no rule or law in the US preventing a passenger from handling or otherwise operating the controls of any aircraft during a private flight. They are not a required crewmember and therefore not exercising any airman privileges and unless they hold a pilot certificate they are not a pilot. It is the responsibility of the pilot in command of the flight to conduct it in a safe manner and entirely within their discretion to determine who shall be allowed to manipulate the flight controls.

Exceptions:

Air carriers operating under parts 121 and 135 are expressly forbidden to allow a passenger to manipulate flight controls.

"Child pilots" on "record setting" flights:

A number of years ago there was a somewhat popular trend involving children too young to hold a student pilot certificate taking credit for record setting flights. They would fly with instructors or other qualified PICs with the intent of claiming records or seeking publicity for their "deeds". Personally I thought at the time that this phenomenon was simply a laughable by-product of well-to-do parents engaging in trendy over-indulgence of their little ones.

Laughable but relatively harmless it seemed to me at the time. Then this little girl and her instructor on one of these "record flights" were killed when they crashed shortly after taking off in the vicinity of a thunderstorm from a high elevation airport in a Cessna Cardinal. Obviously the instructor was PIC, but the national furor over the child's death eventually resulted in a public law being voted in by Congress prohibiting such "child pilot record flights". So while it's still okay to let kids manipulate the controls, it's illegal to let them do it in pursuit of a record. Funny old world...

Backpacker, me old china, back on page two you mentioned letting your have-a-go pax preform a loop....please don't!

In fact, I have upset some posters by insisting it is way out of order to frighten first time pax with aeros of any sort. I did myself, a while back, thinking that the chap in the front of my glider was highly qualified to enjoy the experience of a spin and recovery (I am a qualified instructor, or was at the time...). During our flight he had mentioned that down there at Kineton ordinance depot was his place of work, and he confessed he was a bomb disposal expert....could anyone be braver than that, I thought, and asked him (we had done some steep turns) if he would like to see a spin (for the purpose of loosing some altitude, had to get the glider back in half an hour for the next victim). O yes, he said, so we spun, and he never came back.

It is my conviction that the thrill of flying and having a go is quite enough for the first time. It is my further conviction that it is MANDATORY to talk your life partner into having a go, and in fact having a fair amount of a go, even if you are only a moderately experienced private pilot, and that includes use of the radio, because if you go unserviceable, she could save her life and yours...

I would say it is entirely dependent on the type of people of both tbe passenger and pilot. I have never had a problem with aeros, and would have been thrilled to have had the experience on my first flight.

Some people never fly at all and never want to, and there are all the others in between. Good judgement is required rather than a blanket rule.

Now that we are agreed that, at least in the UK, allowing passengers to manipulate the controls is legal, does anyone allow them to use the radio?

My understanding is that this would be frowned upon as they are not under training and are therefore not exempt from holding a FRTOL.

always give pax a go, surprising how quick they give the controls back when it gets abit rough ! :(

FAir enough Mary, thats your opinion as a qualified and experienced pilot, and I am sure true for 95% of first time pax!

But IMHO, if the pax wants to go for it, and the PIC is experienced enough, go for it. My very first flight in a light aircraft (Chipmunk) was with an extremely experienced pilot and very good friend. He let me have control once out of the ATZ flying straight and level, then showed me some aeros and asked if I wanted to do some...which I duly did and had a thrill of a lifetime! I also flew a couple of touch and goes (albeit at a quieter airfield than his home one)

THAT is what underlined my desire to learn to fly...so please don't rule out aeros for pax altogether - for some it increases their desire to learn to fly..which can only be good! :)

Pretty sure that would not be legal, at least in UK. An untrained person could cause all sorts of problems if the transmit on a busy frequency.

The rules surrounding use of aeronautical radio are pretty strict. When the BA engineers got electrical power onto our Concorde (G-BOAC) at Manchester and it all came to life, we had the radios tuned to the Tower and switched through the cockpit speakers. I was very tempted to plug in my headset and call up on the Delivery frequency "Manchester Delivery, Speedbird Concorde Alpha Charlie radio check".

That would have been a bit of fun, but of course illegal not least because AC's radio fit is no longer a licenced installation. So I didn't!

Its legal for anyone to use the radio as long as they are under the supervision of a RTFOL. But only in an aircraft.


And even thats ignored on the ground handling/ops freqs where any one seems to have a shot.

Per ANO 2009 Section 51, the exemption from holding an operator's licence is that the person operating the radio is "being trained in an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom to perform duties as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft and is authorised to operate the radiotelephony station by the holder of the licence granted for that station under any enactment"

Whilst this may be more honoured in the breach than the observance it does seem to rule out anything other than persons flying with a qualified instructor on a training flight.

It is also rather sad that I had nothing better to do on a Saturday night than look that up.:{

I type thi sat th ebottom of my fourth can o fStrongbow injust oven a hour.


I 'm happy to let SOME pax, AIrtrraffickers mostly, handle the radio butnot the controls.

Where does it say that the holder of the licence has to be an instructor?

Its all linked between two bits of legislation.

The ANO and radio telelphony act I think.

That bit of regulation is so that a student can go solo and use the radio while training.

That bit you have highlighted is refering to the holder of the license for the radio set.

Does anyone actually know of any of the radio stuff ever being actually enforced?

My annual fees for the renewal of the license for each machine is rigidly enforced.:hmm:

I even have the cheque stubs to prove it

Personally I would say stay away from unusual attitudes for a passenger who has never been in a light aircraft before. I am all for letting the pax have a go at flying including some gentle turns and climbs/descents. Pretty much everyone I have let fly have enjoyed the experience, although most are happy with only a few minutes and then want you to take over.

I have taken a lot of people out in my Nanchang. Many profess a desire to experience some "fun" flying but in my experience less then half actually enjoyed even mild aeros. I now start with steep turns (60 deg bank) If they are happy with that then I do a mild wing over. This is usually as far as people want to go. If they are still game then a roll and a loop will be enough excitement.

One thing that is very important with pax when you are doing anything other then gentle manoevering is to make sure they know to look straight ahead. A roll with the pax looking sideways will almost always result in instant nausea :uhoh:

Big Pistons, thank you for supporting my POV regarding fancy attitudes to impress newcomers. Those who responded saying they just loved aeros on their first flight are the exception....the ones who don't come back at all are the eloquent voters. I always loved the idea of flying, after taking quells to prevent airsickness for my first ten lessons, but nearly walked away altogether after my first experience of a spin. And took a couple of years instructing before I felt happy to inflict it on others.....now of course I am as sadistic as any other instructor.

In the gliding syllabus in the UK, the spin is still part of the training. In the US in power, at any rate, it is not.

I particularly disapprove of throwing kids about the sky. Even if parents have approved, they usually do not understand what is involved. Kids may be motivated by peer pressure, and assume that a flying experience is equal to a fairground treat.

It's also vital to talk non-pilots through manouvres such as:

"We'll dive for a bit of speed and you'll feel the 'G' come on as we pullup... here we go, diving for speed, level, and pulling up n-o-w to about... this attitude, then r-o-l-l the aeroplane all the way around...isn't that fantastic... and then gently ease back up, up and here we are straight and level again".

It's the unexpected 'G' or sudden manouvre that they don't like. Who would?

I have to agree on that point. I don't reckon my enthusiasm would have lasted long with unexpected or unexplained manoeuvers. I was fortunate to fly with two excellent, professional and communicative instructors, who also didn't bugger about if I felt queasy!

I terrified a first time passenger once with a touch and go. Of course I should have explained in advance but I was inexperienced myself. She thought something terrible had gone wrong...

Tim

Two of us once flew a 172 Barton to Mona and back, with a work colleague as pax in the back who'd never flown GA before. My mate flew it there, I flew it back. He's taller than me so had wound the P1 seat down a bit, something I didn't notice until the climb after t/o, with the nose-up attitude.

I reached under the seat for the handle to raise it, but it didn't seem to work. I turned to my mate in the P2 seat and said "it won't go up".

Our colleague in the back apparently (we didn't notice at the time) nearly went into a panic on hearing this. He though I was referring to the aeroplane!

I explained to the passenger that I was going to land and take off again so as to get in another practice landing ... but didn't explain the terminology, so when he heard me call "final touch and go" he thought I was saying it was touch and go as to whether I was likely to land safely.

its like the old unconfirmed story.

Pilot is giving a PA in the cruise and half way stops with the phrase "dear god!!"

He comes back on 5 mins later and aplogises.

Says something along the lines of.

"Sorry about that ladys and gentlemen, one of the cabin crew was very kindly bring us a cup of coffee and I managed to spill it. You should see the state of the front of my trousers"

Scots accent is heard from amongst the masses in the back "aye and you see the :mad: state of the back of mine pal"