BP your experience only matches mine at smaller airports, and then what you say is true.

However once you start to operate at larger airports this is not so true. When I used to regularly operate in/out of Dublin, we would typically have three seperate VRPs to use on the way. No problem for those of us very familar with the environs but for those who weren't a GPS was a godsend.

The airport would only be visible from the last one. And you wouldn't always get the same ones, and you could often be asked to hold before proceeding.

Even where I'm based now, we typically have to two two VRP's and if coming from the east, a number more.

You certainly don't want to lose your route when you still have a bit to go before the airport is visible.

Also VRP's are used not just for arrivals, but often for transits too. Again having them available in your GPS is a godsend, but the last thing you want to do is lose your route to get to them (by doing a direct to), or spend ages trying to program it, yet you do want the points added to your plan.

You are also likely to use more VRPs from further away, where you have to significant airports close to one another. You'll often have to transit one's airspace to get to the other.

Finally, you're conviently ignoring the issue so VRP's on departure too. Again, you don't want to have to do a "goto" at this point and lose your flight plan.

But in many way, I think we are actually agreeing on the centre point. Having to spend anything more than a few seconds to add the VRP to your flight plan isn't good.

DP, I still don't get it.

When I depart from Rotterdam, or arrive there, I just put in, say, Mike as the entry/exit point of the CTR. From there it's DCT to or from the field. At least, that's how I load up the GPS. I know the route between the field and Mike is not DCT, but I typically can't be bothered to put the whole route in - especially when the official route is curved because it follows a road, river or railway.

If the GPS I'm using shows VRPs (e.g. SkyDemon) I really don't have to reprogram the GPS to fly to a VRP if required. I just glance at the GPS, find the VRP, look at the approximate course I need to fly, set that course and see what happens. And if the GPS doesn't show VRPs (e.g. GNS430) I typically set the zoom and declutter level so that I can see the whole shape of the CTR, preferably with some major roads or rivers visible. I then use this overall shape and the aircraft symbol to look at the Visual Approach Plate on my lap, and can identify where I am on that VAC with an accuracy of less than a mile. So I can still fly to a VRP anyway.

In fact, I would probably prefer the GPS to accept a route starting at the VRP at the CTR boundary for my departure airfield, and ending at the VRP on the CTR boundary for my destination airfield, so the screen doesn't clutter up my departure and arrival. But somehow GPSs seem to be confused by that concept.

In any case, the aircraft doesn't fall out of the sky when you deviate from the magenta line. So if the magenta line shows DCT, but you have to dogleg via a VRP, just use the overall shape of what the GPS screen shows (including the DCT leg) and the GPS screen or paper VAC to fly to that VRP. I don't see a need to update your route in the GPS to actually show the dogleg via the VRP.

And consider this: Pre-GPS, did you draw your exact route on your map or VAC as required, with heading, timings and such? CTRs only have an 8-mile radius. That's four or five minutes flying time in the average spamcan. If you can't navigate visually for five minutes, then what?

I think your experience might be very Dutch centric. CTR's are certainly not standard at 8nm radius, and VRPs are not limited to CTRs.

I appreciate that you can simply look at your screen and see a VRP and navigate towards it, but then the same can be said for most points. Are VRPs visible on normal zoom levels when not routing via them? If so the screen must get very crowded.

And you've conviently ignored the issue of transits.

Of course the same issue apply for any other points along your flight...not just VRPs. Simplicity of entry and speed of entry are very important factors to reduce heads in time.

BP, I am not familiar with Rotterdam other than as pax, but it's a serious airport with pro ATC who I would expect to advise of any conflicts between myself on a published approach and you on a DIY one. While not ideal, not the end of the world either.

But consider other scenarios, e.g. non-towered field, VRPs that start many miles out from the airport with the airport nowhere near in sight (Vienna, Malaga, etc) or transits (Barcelona, Perpignan just to give you two). In these kind of situations the last thing you need is someone calling a non-published VRP and no possible help from ATC.

Call me a stickler for procedure, but the vast majority of mid-airs happen in the vicinity of an airport - not a place to introduce ambiguity, at least in IMHO.

Then you would be wrong. It's still class C where traffic information VFR to VFR is only given when possible and practical. Of course they will do their best but there's no guarantee.

What you can expect though, is the locals on their DIY approaches and departures, or their tasks within the CTR, to know the standard approaches and departures. So they know where you are likely to be, if you adhere to the published procedures, and they will look out for you if there's likely to be a conflict.

I defy anybody to find Kimpton Hall (inbound Luton) at the first attempt, even the Luton controllers are getting fed up with that one:ugh:

SND

I have just looked up the VFR approach chart for Luton (EGGW) and Kimpton Hall is shown as a VRP. So you are stuck with it; ATC is entitled to reference it - regardless of whether it is visible from the air to a non-local.

It depends on where the 5 minutes is starting :)

A VRP which is hard to find is always going to be hard to find.

Local pilots always take the p1ss out of this - along with instructors, they know every sheep down there :) Try it on a visiting pilot from say France.

I see a VRP at Luton which is a specific M1 junction. I never knew the M1 had only one junction :ugh: Fortunately, with the £500 landing+mandatory-handling cartel at all these airports, I don't suppose many people fly to Luton VFR :) And transits are radar monitored anyway.

I would never buy a GPS which doesn't show the official VRPs, and if I was given a VRP by ATC which is "unofficial" I would tell them so. They should not be operating it. Well, except at my base airfield where I know where they are ;) On all my long VFR trips, I had scanned and georeferenced VFR charts all the way, with VRPs.

Local pilots often consider themselves "experts" but in truth don't get out much. The real test is, of course, how good are they at finding other people's non-published "VRPs"? :E

I like to load relevant official VRPs into my aircraft's database (Garmin 530/430) before departure. The coordinates can be found in Pooley's guide, or similar. To be honest, I'm surprised these aren't loaded as standard, by the manufacturer. The Luton ones in particular, as transit aircraft are often required to hold at these before crossing clearance is given.

IFR panel mounts rarely have VRPs.

That is why I chose the KMD550 MFD back in 2002 - that whole product family (KMD150, Skymap 3C) has the same great VFR/IFR mapdata.

Would we lie to you Riverrock? Taken me ages to get everything sorted to get the relevant VRPs published, it is only one fella at the CAA who takes care of these things. Should be in the next AIP update, will be in Pooleys before that and fingers crossed, will be on the new Scotland chart.

Agree that some of the bizarre unofficial VRPs are a problem but referring to places we know are marked on the charts shouldn't be a problem, should it? Our zone is too small for more VRPs inside the CTR, we've been told so prominent unpublished points will have to do.

FT

Nope. I'm sure you wouldn't but I wanted someone else who knows the process better than me to respond and counter balance the normal bitching on here:}