I agree; a TBM850 is about $3.2M plus extras which is a lot, but it is a quality piece of hardware.

But you can buy a used good condition TBM700 with a fresh engine for say $1.5M, and you get everything in between.

My guess is the Cirrus jet will be $2M. The Mustang is $2.7M or so. $2M will get you a nice TBM. If you want to go "downmarket" then a brand new Jetprop will be $1.5M.

It's an interesting question how many piston twin owners would move to a SE of any kind. They appear happy to pay a hefty premium for the 2nd engine; presumably for strong reasons of their own. But all those I know don't appear to have $2M or anything remotely like that, to play with.

I think the market for a SE jet would be SE TP owners, mainly.

But there are so many variables it seems. The other day I was talking to a chap who sells and maintains this stuff and he said a King Air 90 will cost less to run than a TBM850, total operating cost (excluding fuel and Eurocontrol charges) for the first 10 years. This really suprised me. A KA90 has 2 motors which has a lot of value to certain parts of the market.

In Europe (which admittedly is not going to a major Cirrus priority) a ME TP or any jet will have a problem under EASA OPS in that it will need a dual (FAA A&P/IA or 145-RS plus EASA Part M) maintenance signoff, which is sure to inflate costs a bit. Whereas an SE TP doesn't need that - I am sure Socata and Pilatus "sorted this out" under the table at EASA to clobber their US competition :E

The twin vs single debate is endless.

But in all honesty, the real divider is (as usual) economics. I can go out tomorrow and get a King Air, Turbo Commander or an MU-2 for about $400.000. They will fly almost as fast as TBM and go further, probably land and takeoff shorter and just burn about 20-gal/hr more. You can buy a lot of fuel for $1 million in price difference...

Peter, I know you have an aversion against twins, but I also know you want to upgrade to a turbine eventually. You could go get a twin rating in a week and be in a turbine in no time for a lot less money than any TBM or Jetprop. There's plenty of choice out there.

Yeah, but I'd still have one:ok:

Imagine telling ATC you're a Jet Cirrus;) Yes, I am a show off.

With GPS approaches set to burgeon there will be plenty of airfields it will be able to access.

SGC

Perhaps the emerging Chinese buyers are what Cirrus have in mind?

Nice interior but the performance is nothing earth shattering. Plenty of other airframes out there, especially 2nd hand.

What's the point of a jet that can only do 300kts TAS flat out at altitude? Some piston-engined aircraft are faster than that. My normal steed would be very nose high at that speed, probably nearly stalled!

I don't actually.

What I tend to say is that a SE TP is safer than a piston twin, and such.

I can believe it. I haven't seen a comparative analysis between a 90 and 850. However I have seen one between the PC-12 and 200. And it was surprising. There was nothing in the hourly costs, including fuel. And for utilisation of 200 hrs per year the maintenance on the 200 was much less. Fuel only was about a third more on the twin.
It's not a single vs twin debate so I'm not going to get into that. And for it's now native far eastern market perhaps the Cirrus jet is just the thing, look at the amount of Rollers sold in China, not to mention the ugly brute of an SUV Bentley have developed specifically for that market. However my personal order of preference would be:

1. 90 : Twin safety, lovely cabin, proven machine.
2. TBM: Lovely airplane, good range.
3. Cirrus Jet.

Cirrus did a great job of convincing wealthy Ferrari drivers they needed an airplane. Despite it flying like a dog. Perhaps this is the same target audience in the Far East they are aiming at, albeit with more disposable cash.

Anti Climax for sure, I have seen the SF50 Jet in flight in Duluth and no doubt a beautiful sight. When originally launched absolutely it could have been a winner, 500 Cirrus owners thought so with $100K deposits and the anticipated price was around $1M and designed and built by Alan Klapmeir.

Many faithful Cirrus owners would naturally have progressed to the Jet.

Now with a price tag circa $2M it puts it in a whole different market and the damage done to the Cirrus fraternity I think it will be a tough battle for them to make money.

You think it handles like a dog? I think it handles significantly better than most spamcans, which is what is fair to compare it to...

I agree about the jet though, 300kts TAS is disappointing and significantly slower than the TBM. Would probably be quieter and a smoother ride than a turboprop though.

So, the BIG announcement was...........










....... "We've got ourselves a bank loan"!

Nonsense. Complete nonsense.

Have you flown one?

You are entitled to your opinion but are amoung a very small minority.

Cirrus have their faults but by any stretch handling is not one of them for the mission profile of the aircraft.

The economic argument for vljs was based largely around 'air-taxis' more than owner-pilots. My understanding was that single jets couldn't be used for public transportation, but with a stall speed in the low 60s and CAPS I wonder whether that's still the case?

I for one welcome this new high speed composite flying coffin.

...and if you ever get a tricky approach or fly into cloud, just pull the BRS and float gently to the ground/your death.

Rolling out an old prototype from the back of the factory is not big news.

The news I'm most excited about right now is this:

I see ANN still haven't forgiven Cirrus for not paying them for their advertising contract:

Vision Impaired: Cirrus Re-Announces The Previously Announced SF50 Jet... Again

Now add Cirrus SR22 / Columbia 400 at the bottom, and you see the gap they are trying to fill.

It is a BIG step from a 4-seater SEP to the TBM, the 90, a Mustang, or an Eclipse 500 - just put them on the ramp next to each other, let alone the requirement in pilot capability! There is currently no 300kt certified aircraft with a small cabin (the Eclipse / Embraer 100 / Mustang "VLJs" come closest, but are more in the TBM size class)

Simply said, the aircraft building tradition is that more power goes into more payload and larger cabins, not into higher speed.

What the high-end, cash-rich (what you call "Ferrari driving") private pilots want is speed, and a six-seater at most. That is what Cirrus is aiming for. Some kit planes fit that segment - Lancair IVPs with turbines, Epic, etc.

Doing it with a Jet? Bold and risky, I wish them luck, I agree with you and it would not be my choice to buy.

If Cessna got their act together, made the Corvalis pressurized, added a TP and made the gear retractable [it IS the certified version of a Lancair IV, so the basic airframe is suitable] it would be a MUCH better contender for the "Ferrari" segment [although to compete with Cirrus, it would probably also need a parachute]

Ooh. No-one could accuse the PPRUNE forum of being overly cup-half full on this. Any more flaws we can come up with? The list so far is flying coffin bird ingestor death trap for ferrari driving morons who'll pull the BRS if near a wisp of cloud and too slow hah my 30000lb jet would stall Id buy a used TBM.....etc

It'll probably be the best selling new turbine airplane. Outside the utility (Caravan) segment, there is precisely one new aircraft between the $1m Baron and the >$3m TBM and Mustang - the Piper Meridian. It's hardly an overcrowded market.

I agree it is a gap. I am not sure this is the best way to fill it, but if it is the ONLY aicraft filling it, it is very likely to sell well. Piper should be quaking in their boots about the Meridian... and I know a few owner-pilots (ok, two) in the TBM bracket that would definitely give it a good look!

Also, Cirrus has proven in the past that they can sell their aircraft into new segments, the SR22 outsold the competition considerably, and the SR22TN in particular has left the direct competition (Corvalis, Mooney Bravo / Acclaim) dead in the water.

I still believe a TP is a better TECHNOLOGY choice than a jet in that segment (just look at the figures - a TBM850 achives 0.72NM per lb fuel at 6,300lbs weight and 320kt, Cirrus claim 0.72NM per lb of fuel at 5,400lbs and 300kt) but the difference is not significant enough to be a problem - after all, who compares a Ferrari and a Lamborghini based on their fuel consumption?

Not being overcrowded doesn't mean there is a huge pent up demand.

A new Jetprop is $1.5M, so add that one. It's better in most respects than the Meridian, too.

And anybody who wants one can have one.

Also, what are the current Baron sales? According to this they sold 30 last year.

I would not doubt that Cirrus could outsell the TBM (38) but I don't see a market for hundreds. Where would the money be coming from?

You also can't just jump into a jet like you can jump into a Ferrari. The journey to the whole PPL/IR with a type rating is very nontrivial. (ATPL exams in Europe). I recall talking to some people close to the now dead Javelin jet and their view was that they realised too late that most of the people with the money would not have time to collect the paperwork to fly it.

That's why nearly all bizjets are flown by a crew and not the owner and this includes nearly all of the SP certified ones. The principal bet Cirrus will be making is not that they can bring a SE jet to the market at the $2M+ area but that they can somehow create a whole new bunch of private pilots who are going to commit to the paperwork collection journey.

I think most of "the market" is already flying a turboprop, and you can count them :)

I don't think that follows, because the gap doesn't exist once you look at used aircraft.

Anybody who can buy a $1M Baron could stretch a little and buy a good used TBM700 which will outclass a Baron in every department except not having two engines (and the value of two piston engines compared to one PT6 is dubious).

A $2M Cirrus jet will be competing with a lot of good turboprop hardware.

Peter, Cobalt
I agree with your points. I was disagreeing with the overwhelmingly negative sentiment in the thread.

Peter - all the arguments you make about the trade-offs in the $2m market, you could make in the $700k market Cirrus sell the SR22 in. I tend to share some of your preferences. But there are always trade-offs. You say the Baron guy could buy a used TBM for $1.5m. But he could equally buy a 90s CJ 'classic' for the same money. The CJ outclasses the TBM massively - so why does anyone buy a used TBM etc etc.

Some people want brand new, latest glass cockpit and single-owner/pilot simple. That's why they buy $2m Medidians instead of one of the huge range of used jets/TPs available for that much. That's why they buy $700k Cirrus SR22s instead of one of the vast range of used piston aircraft that are more capable, comfortable and cheaper.

The light jet segment (Mustang and up) is mainly crewed, but there are hundreds of owner-pilots of everything from C500s upwards in the USA. There are also those for whom the step even to a Mustang (nice used ones at $2m) is daunting. I would imagine the flying challenge for a Cirrus Jet would be markedly simpler. Your Jetprop/TBM uses archaic non-FADEC PT6 technology, for example, requiring a lot more pilot management on start and operation. In Europe, yes, the training & paperwork is onerous. For a properous non-pilot to say "I fancy one of those" is unrealistic for training time/effort reasons. In the US, there must be thousands of Cirrus owners who've accumulated hundreds of hours IFR experience. The damn factory course for the Cirrus SRxx is almost as long as some light Jet TRs, so an experienced FAA PPL/IR on the Cirrus SRxx would probably be a 10 day type rating course and some mentored hours away from flying a new class of jet. Peope will.

Whether they sell dozens/yr or a really impressive >100/yr will depend on how well they execute. Sadly, this class of aircraft rarely seems to emerge from certification and with options fitted with appealing range/payload. We'll have to see. From the new SR22T I flew last summer (FF payload ~300lb) I hope they keep weight under control....