Not at all. I still believe tha my prediction will be correct. The IMCr is history,grandfather rights probably. But pretty useless on Annex II and permit aircraft......

Unfortunatly.

Bose - strange, I dont recall your predicting grandfather rights? I am not sure I even recall your predicting anything other than an EASA IR in the bold new EASA world? ;)

It is possible.

I am not fighting with you over this Fuji, go back and look at what I have said in the past. I predicted the situation with the FAA and said that they would just pay lip service to you until the 11th hour and then roll you over. I have said the same thing with the IMCr, they will pay lip service and roll you over. An IMCr or whatever they choose to call it in an Annex II or permit aircraft is the ultimate chocolate teapot.

While I will admit to enjoying the torture of Peter over these subjects it does not mean I support the situation we find ourselves in. There is no safety case for the FAA clampdown and there is a very clear safety case for retaining the IMCr. But as EASA have demonstrated time and time again minor details like that do not bother them as long as we are all uniform. Remind you of something?

If I recall we had a discussion about the EASA rulemaking process. The Derogations that appear in the regs are decided outside that process in Brussels. Choosing to apply or not the derogations is a matter for individual states. What has that to do with the transparency of the EASA NPA rulemaking process?

Please point me to a specific exchange of posts you are claiming you were right/I was wrong?

There have been a number of comments along the lines of ...

I am clearly missing something. As I understand it, the rules have pretty much guaranteed the long term security of N (and similar reg) foreign based aircraft. We now have it documented that it is allowed under EASA/EU law, that all aircraft need to comply with the respective aspects of EU-OPS (which I think was broadly true before) and that the FAA maintenance regime is acceptable. The only issue remaining is in parts FCL/MED (and the slightly bizare need to have two licences and medicals to fly an N vs an EU aircraft).

This last element certainly removes a major driver for moving PA28 C172 type aircraft onto the N. However, for more complex aircraft the N still preserves

• your ability to operate globally (you can get maintained anywhere)
• prevents having to make expensive modifications to get onto the local reg - which then may need to be removed to sell the aircraft back into the global market
• the ability to install modern safety/functionality upgrades
• the ability to operate (at the turbine level) under a demonstrably safer regime.
• The ability to operate in an internally consistent and stable regulatory environment

For Joe Bloggs in a spam can, these reasons probably are not enough to spend £5k moving to N-reg. But they are probably enough to prevent moving back to EU reg. For turbine operators these are going to be way more significant than the short term hassle of retraining crew or hiring different crew.

I accept that a bunch of EU citizens being thrown out of work is a bad thing for the individuals, but I don't see it as a reason for the operators/owners to change registration.

So I can see this change stemming the tide of light piston aircraft moving off EU registers, but I certainly don't see this driving tide of turbines (or even Nreg pistons) onto the EU registers.

Absolutely correct..:ok::ok:

I though you would have to come under both systems for oversight now if perm based in EU.

Spot on
 

mm_flynn - That is exactly as I see it.

The proposals I have seen does not change the maintenance regimen for the small aircraft.

Provided it is what EASA calls non complex i.e. not ME turboprop, not over 18 seats, not over 5700kg, not a turbojet.

MJ will be disappointed :ugh:

So small then?

If you can ever buy a Cirrus Jet :rolleyes:

Not disappointed in the slightest Peter.

And thanks for clarifying the line.

Do not want to ruin the anti N reg party but I have heard information today which is very solid, reliable and detailed and which I cannot disclose ;)which wont get me hurrying to convert my Licences to EASA.

Pace

Looks like a pointless post Pace, or more like wishful thinking. Either way, why post such a tease? What you or I may not wish IS going to take place because it is already law. Maybe a reliable and solid mate of yours thinks he can circumnavigate it is one thing but the courts, not him, will decide that.

Sorry, but it's here, and it ain't goin away.

PS. I know something else, but sorry, it's top secret!

Which is exactly what I did. However, at the airports I frequent there has been a very noticeable renregistration trend (or disappearance of EU airframes). At the rate it was going, by the end of the decade there would have only been the AOC operators and PFA types left on the EU reg! The changes will have dramatically slowed that particular flow from EU to N reg airframes.

Chubby Chopper

What was EASAs publicly stated reason for the extension from 2012 to 2014? Was it so people like you had time to convert? Was it because the relevant bodies did not have time to instigate the regulations? Or was it something else ? If it was something else which most of us thought was a smoke screen I can confirm that that is far from the truth wait till after June and you may realise why I for one am not in any hurry to do a thing.
More than that I cannot say other than the information comes from a very very reliable source who is at the heart of what is going on. Infact part of what is going on.
Had he said Pace get converted I was considering it but I was told do nothing!
But Chubby Chopper its a free world you do what suits you.
I can assure you this thread is way off mark. More than that I really cannot say with breaking a confidance.

Pace

We will see; perhaps your confidant has the clout to change the legislation. One other significant point, the "delay" you mention applies only to those states who apply for it. Some states have applied for two years, some for one year only, and some it would appear have not made any appications for the required "derogations."

Depending on where you fly using your FAA ticket, and where the operator of your aircraft resides, YOU could be in breach of the legislation as I type NOW...the two years you speak of is not a granted right!

That said, I hope you are correct. It will make my job a lot easier.

As I said some time after June we will have a clearer picture of where this is all heading.
As for derogation I have yet to hear of a pilot who has had problems neither have I had a problem to date which could indicate that those countries are not that bothered or not very efficient? You would have thought they would be lined up waiting for every N reg aircraft on blast off day?

Pace

Hmm. Can't think of anything happening in June... ;)

I can't possibly imagine what Pace knows, or what his confidant knows, but I'm sure that the legislation is not going to change! Sadly I have to assume that the only thing likely to happen in June will be rain.

I'll bet money on both.

Even if they do find a spoiler, that won't be the end of it. They will just make new legislation up to cover it. And we will have a re run of the same arguments. Then eventually they will succeed.

And my conclusion for that is that I have every faith that the US won't change there licensing rules just to help out a very small number of pilots and aircraft in the EU. And the EU certainly won't take it up the bum and just say o well we tried but we are just going to have to admit defeat.

As one poster said some aprons your pax could get confused thinking you had landed in the states with the amount of N regs on it. They can't let a whole sector of avaition be regulated by a country thousands of miles away

ChubbyChopper

I am very sure the regulation will change to what degree is the question.
EASA changed the deadline from 2012 to 2014 for the claimed sole purpose of obtaining a Bi Lateral agreement with the USA regarding licence recognition.
Most regarded that claim as false and as a smokescreen to smooth the way for the current legal framework to go into law.
We now know that both sides EASA and the FAA are motivated to add FCL to the bi lateral signed up recently.
EASA have only recently turned their attention towards a bi lateral on FCL and the good news is that both parties finally appear keen to achieve one.
EASA are also aware of legal problems regarding the present framework with employed working pilots so while I understand why you dont feel the regulations will change I am equally sure they will. What we have today will not be what we will have in 2014 or 2016 which I also feel is more likely!
To what extent those changes will be is the question mark but as a working ATP I wont be rushing off to study 14 exams quite yet.

pace

Then I wish you well but shan't show you sympathy if it proves to be short sighted.

I do not believe for one minute an agreement will be made that will give you what you want. The FAA will not give into the demands if EASA and the EASA demands are ridiculous.

But hey, I'm in it for the long game, so let's see what happens.

The EASA plans are rediculous for a very good reason which is as Bose stated so they don't have a hope in hell of getting them. And even if they do get them I have every faith in the US senate doing there usual and vetoing any changes. There are way to many things that have to line up and there are just as many out there trying to scupper them as there are trying to get them through if not more. Both on the US side of things and the EU.

As a pro pilot you would have to be barking mad not to have already started the proccess to get the required licenses. When it falls through and eveyone has to. Its going to be a nightmare get the exams sorted, more than likely if you do get a seat it will be in Glasgow (if they even still have that one open) The Intergrated schools book theres months in advance and it can be 2-3 months before you can get your local center when demand is high.

Pace

I get your drift, and agree that not doing the 14 exams much before 2014 is a reasonable decision - for a UK based private owner-pilot or a UK based "working pilot" like you are.

I did the JAA IR in 2011/2012 primarily because I considered that capturing the current 15hr IR conversion option was a reasonably prudent policy. Had that option been lost, I would have faced the full grim option of burning 50hrs pf my time and avgas into my logbook.

As it happens, that option has been technically lost, but it appears to be carrying on for the time being because nobody knows what to replace it with :)

The next factor behind getting this stuff in the bag is the existence of the question bank, without which the study workload goes up massively. Particularly depressing as the theory is a good 90% useless garbage which was tossed out by the RAF in the 1970s due to lack of relevance and picked up by a departing RAF ground technician who then positioned it into the right place at the right time.

What I might not agree with you on is the BASA even if we assume it will come. I simply do not believe that EASA will agree to a straight paper swap on FCL, perhaps with air law and radio comms exams. This would undermine everything that Europe stands for which is ripping off FAA regs and gold plating them to protect European jobs. It would severely damage the European FTO industry because all the young skint lads who desperately want to be airline pilots would sod off to Arizona and do their CPL/IRs out there and then come back here to convert them. Forget "aviation" and just look at the politics - that's always been the right way to see this stuff.

I don't think EASA will ever negotiate an FCL BASA in good faith - unless there is a huge prize to be had elsewhere, along the lines of the USA allowing Euro airlines to operate internal US routes.

IOW, IMHO, the best BASA-assisted outcome will be something approximating the present 15hr IR conversion route, with the added risk of no QB.

Pace can just do a straight exams then skills test with a TRE on his type. Which more than likely can be combined with his FAA check. He won't have to fanny around in a piston unless he wants to.

I wouldn't be to sure about leaving it until 2014 all it takes is one crash in the wrong country and the insurance not paying out and the game changes quite dramatically.

It also opens your estate up for all sorts of liablities so not only one parent less but also pennyless as well.

Peter

I do not disagree with a lot of what your saying especially the fact that EASA will never allow an FAA route to bypass or make a fast track to an EASA commercial and I also agree that a lot of these regulations are protectionism based.

What I fail to understand is that before I considered the Bi Lateral regarding FCL to be a smokescreen purely to smooth ride the new regs into existence.

Now I know the 2012 to 2014 and possibly 2016 move is for real and the EASA Motives are genuine.
What more it appears that the FAA are also motivated.
I am equally convinced that there will never be a time when I will take my FAA ATP into an office to exchange it for an EASA one.
Bose gone are the days when you could take your FAA licence to Ireland and get it swopped for an Irish and hence JAA one. I was so so close to doing that now I could kick myself yet I know many pilots a lot who are the most anti FAA who took that route and others to an easy JAA licence!!

As an older pilot and a working pilot I am reliably told that the present new regs regarding working employed pilots in Europe would not stand up in the European courts if challenged so EASA will have to do something.

I am sure after june things will either look more hopeful or less hopeful and by the end of this year pretty clear on where things are going so I wont start 14 exams at my age just to do what I am already doing perfectly safely quite yet.

Pace

And if they are not, are you just going to wait for the next straw to grasp until you eventually run out and are left unemployable?

You are already an ATP, the exams are just not that demanding for a man of your experience. There are no prescribed minima, no compulsory ground school attendance in fact as I understand it you can just direct enter for the exams and sit them and then and as MJ says do a skill test on your aircraft and you will get a JAA/EASA licence. If you have the MPA time you will get a direct ATPL, if not a CPL/IR.

With all due respect, your approach just smacks of petulance.

He's not unemployable though.

Just not employable where he wants to be.

There are all manner of !!!!eholes out there that have N reg biz Jets looking for pilots. Which is what I think one of the counter arguments would be if it ever goes to court. Mind you I wouldn't fancy Nigeria either.

This hasn't grounded any of them they can still use thier licenses anywhere else that allows the practise or for that matter in the US if they can get employment visa's.

Bose

Yes my motives do smack of petulance :E I admit it!

The FAA and transport Canada have a Bi Lateral agreement which involves one exam to convert one to the other and that seems to work well yet Canada is closer to Europe on its training structures.
I fly as a Captain on Citations and have done so for several organisations so I am petulant about studying 14 exams full of irrelevant material to do what I am already doing.
Air Law? Yes !! European airspace is different and there is total justification in sitting that exam or even a differences exam but 14 exams? That does not sit right in my mind.
If I have to do it I have to do it but the advice I have recieved from someone in the EASA negotiating team tells me to do nothing at least for the remainder of this year.
If I was in my early 40s absolutely as EASA would open more doors working for AOC Ops but late 50s? An EASA Licence will bring me nothing positive workwise so I have to look at the least painful route to maintain what I am doing and have been doing.
Flight test??I have never failed one in my life and that is of no concern and yes I would qualify for an EASA ATP.

You have to remember that we as FAA licensed pilots are the victims. N reg is not a new thing having been accepted practice with Europe for far longer than the EU has been in existence. Surely there must be some moral obligation to maintain those pilots rights to continue their work.

Mad Jock
No that would not be an argument as EC law covers Europe and people rights to employment in Europe not outer Mongolia :)

The sad thing is that some of the biggest opponent to FAA Licences are people who have never sat 14 exams and who obtained their JAA licences by jumping through loopholes with FAA licences in the past!


Pace

About the exams. I resat the JAR ATPLS to get a rating which due to the recession meant I really didnt use them, but they came in handy converting my hybrid CAA JAR CPL to a full JAR CPL. I have sat the old UK 14 CPL exams and the old CAA ATPL exams, which were really tough. The JAR ones in comparison are as total piece of p@@@. Not sure what EASA will be like, but I here they are not that bad.

10 years ago on PPRUNE there were loads of posts relating to CAA exams because they were so tough, you rarely see those posts anymore. With the question bank and experience an experienced pilot would breeze them, probably in about 6 - 8 weeks, I am now getting quite involved with groundschool so am willing to help anybody if they need.

Most of you experienced guys would probably get 60 -70% without study, its the odd tricky question they put in that makes it slightly difficult, you have no partial pass rules anymore either - Yes a lot of info you will never use, but a whole lot you will already know and hence will not find difficult.

It may not be as big a hurdle as you all feel - it really isnt anymore. Im no brain box either if your wondering just normal Joe Blogs with a few O levels.

And I am really willing to help anybody. I am an Independent Financial Adviser by trade and have just had to take a load more exams to stay doing what I have been doing for 20 years, so I understand the emotion of doing exams to keep doing what you have been doing - hence I have to let pursuit of flying anything larger go, but Im remaining a GA Instructor Examiner and Ground Instructor, part time. So PM me if you wish for a chat.

Aware

Thanks for your kind offer which I may still take up :) As stated if I was 40 it would be a no brainer and after the June meeting it still maybe a no brainer if there is no positive movement to a Bi Lat.
A lot with me is the principal which should be for experienced and current jet Captains a straight differences exam and flight test.

Pace

Pace, sorry mate but that just is NOT going to happen, EVER!! Your bar confidant is leading you up the garden path, so do yourself a big favour and take the exams...it aint rocket science, and if you have even 100 hours of jet time you will p1ss them in one take.

You keep banging on about the hardship of taking exams...what about the poor sods who can't pass the medical? Did you ever bother to think of them? Probably not huh? You were too busy banging on about the difficulty of passing exams which, I presume, you decided to avoid earlier in your career.

Swallow the pill.....the rights and wrongs of this issue relate to a period that is well gone and as hard as you may wish it to be undone it just is NOT going to happen!

I disagree with all of it too, but hey ho that's the way it goes!

ChubbyChopper

No I very much do think of the poor sods who wont pass a EASA class I initial.
With all my scuba diving I have done I worry about the audio gram myself :{ and have an African friend who went FAA because of his eyesight.
Post June and no bilateral in sight and I will take your advice.
Wish I had jumped through the Irish and other loopholes like many here years ago and exchanged my shiny FAA for an over the counter JAA.

Pace

Well you didn't, which really just shows a history of shortsightedness.... :p

The audio exam for already licensed pilots is actually very hard to fail especially if you have any rotary time.

Even if you do fail it with a doc all you need to do is get and examinor or line training Captain to chat to you on an intercom and if you can hear him he signs you off and thats it done.

MadJock

What did you say cant hear a bloody thing ;)
No hearing not bad just one ear not as hot as the other due scuba diving with a cold :ugh:

One thing I have clarified which is causing major concern and also a misconception concerns Derogation!
Derogation concerns flight crew licencing and EASA licences.
It has nothing to do with dual licence requirements which has been moved to 2014 plus one year dispensation for those on a conversion course.

You are not flying illegally into some countries NOW!

EASA did move to 2014 for the sole reason of gaining a Bi Lateral with the USA remember the USA have a Bi Lateral with transport Canada a system fairly similar to our own.

There is a high powered meeting in June with both sides motivated.
This will not mean little Joe will be able to sidestep EASA by gaining an FAA Licence but it may mean ATP holders with certain experience and hours will have an easier route.




Pace

4000 hours of Garrett engines droning away is whats done for mine. Not that 15 years working with grinders etc in oil yards etc did me much good before that.

Although the seat change did mean that instead of having one !!!!e ear the other one is now also !!!!e. Although I am told I have good hearing for a TP driver. The 737 boys tend to have bad hearing as well especially if they go onto speaker in the cruise or have one muff off.

They honestly arn't that fussy with the hearing, I presume it was so all the RAF mates could get a civi medical. Some of the ex rotary boys blow your head off if you don't sort the station box out before you plug in.

Mad Jock

So I can bring my hearing aids along to the test? Both Victorian and shaped like trumpets ;)

Pace

I think if you had a hearing dog they might cause a bit of a fuss.

Should be ok taking your strumpet along.