Three ex wives and their lawyers and a Maule.

Whew, respect! :ok:

Any time you feel the need, i.e, for a lesser "roasting, condemnation or bollocking", do feel free to come back and ask something else. ;)

It's been a good joust though.

Still friends?:ok:

D.O.

When is a soap box not a soap box?
When it's a forum!

Classic PPrune perfectly reasoned discussion:D
And even includes this well worn piece of utter bull!!!!e.
I sometimes wonder what makes glider pilots tick.

But if one plane is coming from the continent, and the other from the UK. There is an hour time difference. If they are doing traffic avoidance on local time, this could affect safety, as one might actually be at 12 O'clock!:sad:

What about daylight savings time? This could also make the right of way for "O'Clocks" more complicated....

PilotDAR:D
Don't know what you're talking about. I've got a digital watch.
D.O.

Yes but they will miss each other by an hour so there is no problem:cool:

Could this be a potential time to turn left?
I was on a go-around on runway 13 (must have been 4th solo flight or there abouts) & I believe ATC told me to "Turn left" before I'd completed flying upwind leg, so I did. On crosswind I discovered I was head to head with a helicopter on Finals for 21. Still a fair distance between us, but a bit disconcerting for a newbie.

Options:

1. Continue crosswind leg, assuming ATC has a plan
2. Turn Right and so move outside the circuit / going the wrong way on downwind leg, as per right of way / collision avoidance rules
3. Turn left, which would be turning early downwind
4. Pull the BRS (sorry - had to add that although I was in a bulldog so not really an option)

I took option 3 which at the time kept the circuit flowing and since there was still a fair distance between us, it wasn't a problem. The Sea King also turned left after I had done, then continued its approach to 21. Would you (much more experienced people) have done the same?

Sounds like ATC missjudged your position on climbout. You probably pre-empted ATCs next instruction.

Don't hit a SAR helicopter 'cause you'll not be rescued.

D.O.

As a glider pilot we were recently discussing which way we prefered to circle in a thermal. 2/3s said the turned left as it was a forehand movement on the stick.
Is this bias towards LH turns a UK trend?

Sometimes in close proximity turning might not be the best option of collision avoidance. (Think 45 degree bank would form an X with the wings) Unlike ships we can move in 3 dimensions.

riverrock, interesting event, did you establish what had gone wrong and get feedback on the action you took?

BB

Cumulusrider,

I was just thinking the same. I (for info of others) know the textbook/law rules of way. But since I prefer thermalling doing left turns, hmm. Begs a question.
Tried to imagine someone 'just appeared 1 o'clock', probably left turn dive...

What I'd do in fixed wing or heli, hm, another question. Definitely do 'diving' in R22 if I fancy having my main rotor still attached.

I take the other guy's suggestion of 'instinctive turn away from traffic' as based on driving. Well, I learned to drive on 'continent' and never drove a car on the wrong side (UK, SA, OZ), so I should be fine in that respect. But agree with the point made.

Crash One,glider pilots try to avoid power traffic flying straight line - they're more predictable and avoidable. Modern gliders tend be harder to spot flying head on. But then, they fly in circles or skimming ridge most of time (excluding wave - big high for regular Joe few thousand feet up and then ATC usually knows, or XC jumps between lift). If jumping between lifts at speed to fly IAS, I hazard a guess that the glider guy will see power gents way earlier.

I'm afraid not - I hadn't thought much about it at the time (it hadn't phased me - I continued and did another couple of uneventful circuits) but started thinking about it after I left that day. Didn't have another lesson for a few weeks and the rest is history.

The Glider pilot will certainly HEAR the power gent way before the power pilot hears him!

That is a more intelligent comment than "power pilots don't look out".
I flew gliders for a time, had a share in a K6E, As such I am well aware of the stealth characteristics of the average glider. Also, most single engine spam cans & bug smashers like my Emeraude have far less field of view than a glider. I just get pissed off by glider pilots assuming that power pilots are blundering on blindly, head down.
Having said that, It didn't help much a couple of years ago as I was about to connect the cable to the CFI & looked up to see a C172 at <1000ft heading straight up the winch line.:ugh:

Now here's a interesting speculation.

Let us suppose for a moment that pilots only see 10% of the traffic, so then there is only a 1% chance that both pilots see each other.

So now most pilots think they are 10x better than average, because 90% of the time they see "the traffic", and evade, but the other aircraft carries on S&L, obviously "not keeping a good lookout like I do".

Most pilots will be too modest to actually say that, (unless they are glider pilots, of course:p), they will just think it!

I suspect this is similar to the "logic" that makes 80% of car drivers believe they are better than average.

There is a serious point here. If the typical pilot is mostly seeing traffic without being seen, one could indeed conclude that most traffic is missed.

As long as it is missed physically as well as visually there is no problem:ok:

Crash one, Res Ipse Loquator.....

I see by your profile that you are of a ripe age and live in Scotland, my congratulations. And that you enjoyed a share in a K6 - did you do your X-country in the 6? your 50k, your 300k, your diamond distance? have you flown in competition? Pray don't be so scornful of my assessment of the shortcomings and distractions and downright poor fenstration of the average spam can and its driver; this comes from horrible experience. Not only mine. Put it this way, I am surprised and overjoyed when a spam can makes way for my glider -

Riverrock83, I am assuming that you are referring to the large international airport on the Ayrshire coast. They have a bit of previous here!

Last summer, shortly after I had passed my PPL I was in a C152 cleared join right base for 31 and to report final. I then heard a PA28 being cleared to join left base for 31, and also to report final. I was lit up like a christmas tree - well landing light on - and assumed ATC was in control - the name kinda gives it away - so I continued, still not visual with the 28, and was about to turn and report final, when the pilot of the PA 28 called final. I was a bit lower than him, in a 152, so I'll let you work out the visibility possibilities! Anyway the training kicked in - it is not exacty the situation described by the OP, but similar - I firewalled the engine, and instinctively made a sharp right hand orbit, getting a very good view of the underside of a PA28 in the process!

I will say with 20 20 hindsight, that we were never in any imminent danger of collision, and ATC were probably technically right to do nothing, but I and the other pilot, who is a member of the same club had a chat later, and with the CFI, felt ATC could have done better- it was a bit tight, and as it turned out, we both nearly s*at ourselves!

At least in the ICAO rules as well as in the German rules this is not true, if the aircrafts are in a head on situation. Glider and power both have to turn right. May be in the UK this is different, but I doubt. Power gives way to gliders is only applicable for crossing directions.