Three ex wives and their lawyers and a Maule.

Whew, respect! :ok:

Any time you feel the need, i.e, for a lesser "roasting, condemnation or bollocking", do feel free to come back and ask something else. ;)

It's been a good joust though.

Still friends?:ok:

D.O.

When is a soap box not a soap box?
When it's a forum!

Classic PPrune perfectly reasoned discussion:D
And even includes this well worn piece of utter bull!!!!e.
I sometimes wonder what makes glider pilots tick.

But if one plane is coming from the continent, and the other from the UK. There is an hour time difference. If they are doing traffic avoidance on local time, this could affect safety, as one might actually be at 12 O'clock!:sad:

What about daylight savings time? This could also make the right of way for "O'Clocks" more complicated....

PilotDAR:D
Don't know what you're talking about. I've got a digital watch.
D.O.

Yes but they will miss each other by an hour so there is no problem:cool:

Could this be a potential time to turn left?
I was on a go-around on runway 13 (must have been 4th solo flight or there abouts) & I believe ATC told me to "Turn left" before I'd completed flying upwind leg, so I did. On crosswind I discovered I was head to head with a helicopter on Finals for 21. Still a fair distance between us, but a bit disconcerting for a newbie.

Options:

1. Continue crosswind leg, assuming ATC has a plan
2. Turn Right and so move outside the circuit / going the wrong way on downwind leg, as per right of way / collision avoidance rules
3. Turn left, which would be turning early downwind
4. Pull the BRS (sorry - had to add that although I was in a bulldog so not really an option)

I took option 3 which at the time kept the circuit flowing and since there was still a fair distance between us, it wasn't a problem. The Sea King also turned left after I had done, then continued its approach to 21. Would you (much more experienced people) have done the same?

Sounds like ATC missjudged your position on climbout. You probably pre-empted ATCs next instruction.

Don't hit a SAR helicopter 'cause you'll not be rescued.

D.O.

As a glider pilot we were recently discussing which way we prefered to circle in a thermal. 2/3s said the turned left as it was a forehand movement on the stick.
Is this bias towards LH turns a UK trend?

Sometimes in close proximity turning might not be the best option of collision avoidance. (Think 45 degree bank would form an X with the wings) Unlike ships we can move in 3 dimensions.

riverrock, interesting event, did you establish what had gone wrong and get feedback on the action you took?

BB

Cumulusrider,

I was just thinking the same. I (for info of others) know the textbook/law rules of way. But since I prefer thermalling doing left turns, hmm. Begs a question.
Tried to imagine someone 'just appeared 1 o'clock', probably left turn dive...

What I'd do in fixed wing or heli, hm, another question. Definitely do 'diving' in R22 if I fancy having my main rotor still attached.

I take the other guy's suggestion of 'instinctive turn away from traffic' as based on driving. Well, I learned to drive on 'continent' and never drove a car on the wrong side (UK, SA, OZ), so I should be fine in that respect. But agree with the point made.

Crash One,glider pilots try to avoid power traffic flying straight line - they're more predictable and avoidable. Modern gliders tend be harder to spot flying head on. But then, they fly in circles or skimming ridge most of time (excluding wave - big high for regular Joe few thousand feet up and then ATC usually knows, or XC jumps between lift). If jumping between lifts at speed to fly IAS, I hazard a guess that the glider guy will see power gents way earlier.

I'm afraid not - I hadn't thought much about it at the time (it hadn't phased me - I continued and did another couple of uneventful circuits) but started thinking about it after I left that day. Didn't have another lesson for a few weeks and the rest is history.

The Glider pilot will certainly HEAR the power gent way before the power pilot hears him!

That is a more intelligent comment than "power pilots don't look out".
I flew gliders for a time, had a share in a K6E, As such I am well aware of the stealth characteristics of the average glider. Also, most single engine spam cans & bug smashers like my Emeraude have far less field of view than a glider. I just get pissed off by glider pilots assuming that power pilots are blundering on blindly, head down.
Having said that, It didn't help much a couple of years ago as I was about to connect the cable to the CFI & looked up to see a C172 at <1000ft heading straight up the winch line.:ugh:

Now here's a interesting speculation.

Let us suppose for a moment that pilots only see 10% of the traffic, so then there is only a 1% chance that both pilots see each other.

So now most pilots think they are 10x better than average, because 90% of the time they see "the traffic", and evade, but the other aircraft carries on S&L, obviously "not keeping a good lookout like I do".

Most pilots will be too modest to actually say that, (unless they are glider pilots, of course:p), they will just think it!

I suspect this is similar to the "logic" that makes 80% of car drivers believe they are better than average.

There is a serious point here. If the typical pilot is mostly seeing traffic without being seen, one could indeed conclude that most traffic is missed.

As long as it is missed physically as well as visually there is no problem:ok:

Crash one, Res Ipse Loquator.....

I see by your profile that you are of a ripe age and live in Scotland, my congratulations. And that you enjoyed a share in a K6 - did you do your X-country in the 6? your 50k, your 300k, your diamond distance? have you flown in competition? Pray don't be so scornful of my assessment of the shortcomings and distractions and downright poor fenstration of the average spam can and its driver; this comes from horrible experience. Not only mine. Put it this way, I am surprised and overjoyed when a spam can makes way for my glider -

Riverrock83, I am assuming that you are referring to the large international airport on the Ayrshire coast. They have a bit of previous here!

Last summer, shortly after I had passed my PPL I was in a C152 cleared join right base for 31 and to report final. I then heard a PA28 being cleared to join left base for 31, and also to report final. I was lit up like a christmas tree - well landing light on - and assumed ATC was in control - the name kinda gives it away - so I continued, still not visual with the 28, and was about to turn and report final, when the pilot of the PA 28 called final. I was a bit lower than him, in a 152, so I'll let you work out the visibility possibilities! Anyway the training kicked in - it is not exacty the situation described by the OP, but similar - I firewalled the engine, and instinctively made a sharp right hand orbit, getting a very good view of the underside of a PA28 in the process!

I will say with 20 20 hindsight, that we were never in any imminent danger of collision, and ATC were probably technically right to do nothing, but I and the other pilot, who is a member of the same club had a chat later, and with the CFI, felt ATC could have done better- it was a bit tight, and as it turned out, we both nearly s*at ourselves!

At least in the ICAO rules as well as in the German rules this is not true, if the aircrafts are in a head on situation. Glider and power both have to turn right. May be in the UK this is different, but I doubt. Power gives way to gliders is only applicable for crossing directions.

mary meagher.
Please don't attempt to make me feel ashamed that I did not do the X country the 50K, 300, Diamond etc. I got as far as the silver height, & enjoyed every minute, however I found it tedious repairing winches & tractors more than flying.
I have nothing against glider pilots per se, except the fact that many of them, apparently including yourself, seem to regard power pilots as some lower form of aviatic life.
Your bad experience of power pilots is nothing to do with the vast majority of powered a/c or pilots.
If power pilots were such bad aviators generally then shouldn't the authorities be advised & something done about it? Are powered a/c bumping into each other every five minutes?
This seems to be a them & us situation & I do not wish to be in one of those.
We are all in the aviation business, we all use the same atmosphere. If you have a problem with a power pilot who didn't see you, did you discuss it with them? Did you file an MOR? Was it a reportable airmiss?
I once met a glider head on during climb out at a licenced airfield, who dissapeared into cloud at 1200ft over the runway. Legal? prob not, safe? prob not. Good airmanship? deff not in my opinion. I mentioned it's position to my AG as a caution & haven't mentioned it since, 3yrs.
When I was gliding we were encouraged by some instructors to enter Blue 22 as often as possible, in the hope (which worked) that it would be moved a bit to the right. Is this good airmanship?
Enjoy your gliding & your tugging but please stop sniping at other forms of aviation. Glider pilots can't walk on water any more than skydivers.

Quite true, nevertheless, the rules of shipping are fundamentally different. There is NO right of way in shipping. The only thing existing are rules determining who has to stay on track, and who has to change track. And in a situation, where a collision risk is evolving, everybody HAS to navigate in a way to avoid this. Thus NO right of way!

Not fundamentally different at all really, apart from the third dimension.

Although slightly different phraseology has evolved in the two environments:
- an aircraft with right of way is required to hold its course and speed;
- nevertheless the overriding duty of the aircraft captain even if he has right of way is to avoid a collison;

which to my mind mirrors the maritime scenario.

Let's see (from memory and a quick bit of googling)...

C402 versus Rand, Coventry, Aug 08, five dead;
Grob versus Grob, near Cardiff, Feb 09, four dead;
Grob versus glider, not far from Benson, June 09, two dead;
Mooney versus Rans, IOW, Sept 10, two dead;
DA40 versus Rans, Shoreham, July 11, one dead;
Pitts versus Taylorcraft, Leicester, Dec 11, one dead.

Six collisions in the last three and a half years, a total of 15 fatalities...

No discussion yet of 'defensive flying'... I never, ever, operate OCAS under cloud streets, or fly over obvious big sources of thermal lift, or at ridge-soaring heights along ridges in conditions favourable to the production of ridge lift... But I only know not to do those things because I have been a cross-country glider pilot...

There are things I do when flying powered aircraft, too, to guard against meeting other powered aircraft, such as flying in IMC on otherwise nice days...

Really good discussion here and I'm glad to see we've come full circle from simply obey the rules, to look out and make a reasoned decision in the time allowed.
Piperboy. See what you started:) you'll get more sympathy from me next time we speak. I bet that's got you wondering!
D.O.

One does not have to be a cross country glider pilot to know those things, a bog standard non competitive glider pilot should know them. Admittedly not so many, only power pilots, would.
It is a big sky & power pilots have the right to fly where they like OCAS.
As for defensive flying, I am aware of those conditions/places & treat them with considerable caution, I am not however going to avoid big chunks of sky on the off chance of a glider being there.
I may as well stay on the ground in case a power pilot is flying with his eyes down.
Until such time as power pilots are forced by the rules to learn the gliding "system" (which I think would be a good idea) there is obviously going to be a conflict.
We, at our flying club, attempted to organise a day out at the gliding club. Unfortunately not a lot of interest. Personally I think it would be a good thing.

Six collisions in three & a half years!! How many hours/flights without collisions?
I know six is six too many. Compare it with driving, how many crashes/hours?
We may as well give up & hide in a wad of cotton wool.

Couple of questions come to mind, perhaps frontlefthamster can answer....

How many hours are required nowadays for a PPL to remain current?
Is an annual check ride required ?or is it every 2 years?

How many hours do PPL's actually do above and beyond the bare minimum?
With the cost of fuel where it is, only the wealthy will be able to keep it up.

The thing that worries me most about spam cans, Tobagos and the odd BRS Cirrus is that the man (are any at all owned by women, I wonder?) who has earned enough money to buy one probably doesn't have enough time to stay current or to enjoy it. And if you think you can use a SELP for your business travel, sooner or later you will discover the shortcomings.

No, seriously, we find in the gliding world that men (usually men, alas) don't find the time or the money to take up the sport in a serious cross country glider until they are approaching an age when the learning curve has about flattened out completely; yet being ex captains of industry, it is not easy sometimes to make these latecomers sensible of their limitations.....

Legally, 12hrs every 2 years, with the 12 having to be done during the 2nd of the two years (don't ask me why; allegedly it was the Germans who wanted that).

But if you don't do the 12hrs, you just have to fly with an Examiner to renew the PPL.

There is a re-val flight every 2 years. In practice nobody fails (so long as the instructor survives the flight).

I don't think anybody knows but the UK PPL average is thought to be 20-30hrs/year. There is a fair size SD around that figure though; a lot of people fly very little. And some fly 150+hrs/year.
Depends on how you define "wealthy". I spend a lot less on flying than I used to pay for 2 kids' education. I spend a lot less on flying than I pay in child maintenance... (the ex pays my older son £100/month salary to encourage him to stay at college ;) ;) ).
Yes, some are.

Depends on how much you earn and how close you have to come to killing yourself to earn it. It's relatively easy to become a millionaire if you kill yourself. I could earn 5x more by killing myself (seriously).

One of the tricks of GA (and probably most other activities) is to be able to do it at a level which brings enjoyment, while being able to easily afford it.

What I think separates GA from most other human activities (at least those I know about) is that in GA there are many more people who really struggle to do it, despite quite obviously not being able to afford it. Flying does deliver a great return (as we all know) but it sure isn't cheap, and this seems to be why so many struggle so hard.

That's true. It can be done, in the right circumstances. Being based at an airport whose opening hours are those of an airport rather than those of a Brighton hairdresser, with an ILS, and having business contacts at similar locations, is a great start :)

I have never done gliding, but isn't it true that gliding is an "all or nothing" activity, where you have to hang out at the club all weekend, or you get accused of being a freeloader? And people divorce there, marry there, find their partners there. Gliding is not an activity where you can just dip in or out. That is great for many but is not useful to many others - especially those with enough money to fly distances in powered GA.

It's a bit like windsurfing; something I was doing 1985-2011. I gave it up because the hassle (loading up the trailer, etc) outweighed the fun, and I never got good enough to really enjoy it (=carve gybes). In that, you get the all-weekend--on-the-beach people, and the quick-sail-then-vanish people. Gliding is the former; powered GA is more the latter. But that's a pity because powered GA would benefit hugely from a "community" and a social scene... but that's another well worn debate :)

Common sense will tell you that the rule about turning to the right is based on two facts;
1 that this gives you the best visual position on the assumption that you are flying on the left seat of the aircraft.
2. it is better for two aircraft in this situation to move in the same direction relative to their individual line of flight.
Having said that, and having been in that situation, it can be very disconcerting to fly what appears to be across the path of another aircraft. Turning left seems to feel like 'turning away' if you are in the left seat.

... plus instructors tell me I'm not the only one who is much better at steep left turns than steep right turns. However in a head-on I hope I would turn instinctively to the right ... but I don't know for sure, because it's not something I've ever practiced.

I have some sympathy for the OP - part of the PPL exams in Britain is to learn the structure of the AIP and where to find information. Without knowing about that, you could end up looking through all manner of acts of parliament etc. and still not be quite certain that you had the most up to date information.

Not speaking about the poster specifically, a lot of people aren't very good at using search engines either. For example, as few as 10% may know how to use control-f to find something in a document.

Crazy: 90 Percent of People Don't Know How to Use CTRL+F - Alexis Madrigal - Technology - The Atlantic

~~~~

Having come to my PPL from a hang-gliding background, I have to say that I didn't see a great difference in the calibre of pilots from different backgrounds. Perhaps a few of the paraglider pilots were a bit rasher, but by and large if you'd mixed up all my hang-gliding buddies with the people I met doing my PPL, they'd have gotten on well and found plenty to talk about. I can think of a few mildly reckless folk from both camps - admittedly more from the hang-gliding fraternity.

A big difference between hang/paragliders and powered aircraft is that it really takes quite a lot of work before you get from the slope-soaring stage to the point where you can fly long distances cross country. I never got there. Anyway, if you're 30 miles from a hang-gliding site and meet a hang-glider, chances are the pilot is quite experienced and flies regularly. If you're 30 miles from an airport and meet a light aircraft, it doesn't say much about the pilot's experience or competence - could be a 25 hour pilot on a solo nav. And certainly, there's a lot more reason to keep your head in the cockpit whilst flying a light aircraft as opposed to a hang-glider. I don't know much about fixed wing gliding, but I would have guessed the same may apply (probably to a lesser degree?)

Another difference is that mid-air collisions are more likely for glider pilots than they are for powered pilots, perhaps simply because gliders are more likely to be clumped together on the same hill or in the same thermal.

From 1995-2004 there were 5 midair collisions involving powered aircraft out of a total of 102 accidents (5%) and 10 midair collisions involving gliders out of a total of 38 fatal glider accidents (25%) (both figures include one power/glider collision). To my surprise, there were relatively few foot-launched midair collisions (2/36). (regulatory review of general aviation in the UK, report to the CAA board 2006 www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/RegReview.pdf).

Anyway, if glider pilots are more attuned to the risks of mid-air collisions than powered pilots, perhaps it could be because they're simply a much bigger issue for them, and because the remedy (see and avoid) may work better for them due to lower speeds (I'm aware that some gliders can be very small and very fast).

~~~~

I'm surprised by Mary's comment regarding male powered pilots. There are very few woman hang-glider pilots about, and only slightly more paraglider pilots. My observation had been that a much higher proportion of powered pilots seem to be women. I can't speak for gliding whatsoever.

Since when was being computer literate part of a PPL?
D.O.

PPR for Perth is now mandatory, preferably "on line".
Prob dosn't apply to youse guys?:ok:

One has to remember that since nearly everybody chucks in flying shortly after getting their PPL, the community you actually see active at any instant are mostly "old-timers".

I did my JAA PPL in 2000/2001 and we never did notams, the AIP, or anything whatever to do with the internet.

And I am a very "young" pilot, relative to the bulk of the pilot community I see when I go flying.

Sure one needs internet competence to fly nowadays (apart from trivial local popups where you look out of the window, and stay in the local area, and fly without a transponder the rest of the time ;) ;) ) but it has been poorly covered during all the years when it could have been covered i.e. from the late 1990s onwards. And you have the wider issue of how to teach someone of say 60+ who has never used a computer to suddenly start, just so they can fly.

Internet notams date back to 2003 in the UK, and the notam system was impractical (for pilots venturing outside the flying school environment, or the local area) before then.

Re midairs, they fortunately are very rare, and fortunately the scenario is quite predictable statistically: in or near the circuit, and mostly below ~1500ft. The popularly cited risks (overflying VORs, overflying VRPs, flying in/through glider sites, etc) are not supported statistically, and the most popularly cited and perhaps the most instinctively/emotionally worrying one (flying in IMC OCAS) is not supported at all, with zero midairs since WW2.

Crash one,
I was quoting you from another forum. But I did explain an alternative.
Hooked?:E
D.O.

Earlier in this thread, dont overfill said:
Coincidentally, during my recent holiday in NZ, I completed all the paperwork and the BFR that were required in order to convert from a Canadian PPL to a Kiwi one. No requirement for ANY exams, not even NZ air law!

Now before anyone jumps in, I should point out that I have taken the time to study air law and ATC procedures.

pb84, keep asking the "stupid questions". I often find out something new when researching an answer and threads such as this also give me hours of entertainment. :)

Having posted the question online is it unreasonable to assume that the participant is computer literate? :ugh:

Surely posting on a forum is primary one level. Even I can do that. (To a limited extent).
I do not consider myself to be computer literate.
D.O.

:confused: Unless we are talking in biscuit code?

Crash One,
All kinds of misdemeanors can be forgiven by offering Choc Chip Cookies or Custard Cremes.
D.O.:ok: