This guy could be in YOUR airspace!
 

Has anybody read this month`s Chirp blue GA Feedback, the second article "The Right Priority" ? I can see why the caa published it. This toerag could be in the same airspace as you, me, and and the fare paying public. Any thoughts?

Give us a quick synopsis of the story and we may well give you some opinions :)

Try this link


http://www.chirp.co.uk

If this is the guy who thought he was getting radar based traffic information from a FIS, then, yes, I was worried too!

What a muppet.

(The chirper, not you GT!)

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...proceeding below Decision Height WITH CAUTION...

Hangon before linching this guy.

He has shown a misunderstanding of the available radar services which is common to all weekend and GA flyers. Looking back at doing my PPL and so on I can not remember ever siting down with an instructor to talk about the various services a which were available and what was provided. This a fault in the way in which instructors are paid (by flying hour), there is no incentive for them to explain anything in the class room because they are not geting paid for it, and they dont get paid alot anyway.

Most of us on this forum are proffessionals who do this for a living and if we dont know then that is unforgivable, but for weekenders it is understandable, esp for those that have not used RT before or not gone far from their home base before.

After all how meny of us know the highway code, judging from the quality of driving on the roads these days not meny of us.

So this guys lapse is from a lack of education that is endemic in the GA community.

Remember, the open FIR isnt called "Bandit country" for nothing.

By the way, for those who dont do much GA flying, listen out on London info next time your in the cruise and got time to spare, and you will find out just what a problem it is, with one in five asking for a radar service! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

I don`t think just the FIS/RIS mixup is the only issue in that report. Just look at the wording, the aggressive attitude, the whole "it`s everybody elses fault but mine!" tone. (sorry, flypuppy, you have to read it to see what I mean) It looks just like a Daily Mail Shock Horror Scandal! article, rather than a "what did I learn from this?". In essence, he blames the airmiss more on having to speak to ATC at all, than any radar information. I am sure that chirp published it just to make those points. Anyway, I just hope he stays away fromany airspace I`m in!

I think radiotelephony is left to the student pilot to pick up along the way of most PPL courses.I certainly found the text book(Trevor Thom)not the best written I've come across in many years of having to have such books.
Several months ago I posted a question on the ATC forum about the differences between RIS and RAS,availability and so on,the answers to which cleared up a few foggy areas.The new radiotelephony practical exam is not easy due to the vagueness engendered by some books,etc..
What do you guys think of the possible effect of the new National PPL given the fewer hours that will be required for the ticket and the problems encountered now with JAR PPL pilots?

I have flown GA aircraft in the UK, USA, Spain and South Africa. In the UK getting anything other than FIS is almost impossible. In the US I have never had a request for "Radar Following" tunred down. This is despite flying in busy airspace around LAX, SFO, MCO and PHX. As more GA and ultimately CPL/ATPL pilots, do the vast majority of their training in the US the expectation of radar services and confusion over their UK equivalents will increase. The CAA should insist on mandatory training in the UK for all those CAA PPL's issued in the US. I can speak from experience as I did my license over their and when I returned to the UK I was less than fully aware of the difference in services.

The only time I had the different services formally explained to me was when I did my IMC. It is in the books but you have to ferret it out.

Gaza, flying in the States will be completely different to UK anyway, as not only do they have different rules, different airspace and different phraseology, they have different radar coverage too. In the UK at LATCC, we can only guarantee full coverage above FL75, unless, as is current in some areas like ORTAC (jersey rte from UK), coverage is improved to be better at the lower levels.

At most London radar positions at LATCC, getting any service outside CAS is lucky, a radar service, then it must be your birthday! This is due to the fact that each radar is 'flowed' to handle a certain number of a/c per hour, and as the airspace is all class A/B, all a/c are under Radar Control, therefore no need to seperate from any others but those in contact inside CAS, leaving little time for any others. I hope this puts the ATC point across fairly clearly, and the FIS / RIS / RAS rules I believe are in the Air Navigation Order.

I've just found the 'chirp' this came from and read the article for myself. What I first posted (above) isn't really relevent, but slightly informative anyhow!! However, getting a FIS from a potential radar unit cannot be relied upon to give radar traffic info, who says the radar is switched on and working!?! I know one reasonably big AFld in SE England that has radar only when an approach controller is in (not very often!!!!!) Be sure to be sure!

[This message has been edited by 5milesbaby (edited 31 January 2001).]

BTB is right!
That guy evidently thinks talking is more important than flying. He also seems very proud of his 1500 hours. Pity its the same hour 1500 times.

I've never flown in UK airspace, but if people like him are common, I don't think I want to!
Jointy,
I think even the weekend flyer should try to be professional.
makes him an expert.
Carbheat,
I think the National licence, if its similar to the FAA 'Recreational Licence' just lowers the standards. In FAA land, everyone says the accident rate is down, and it not really necessary have to do all the training required to get the PPL.
The accident RATE may be lower, but theres more flying hours, and number of people getting killed has actually gone UP! I think part of this is due to lowering standards. Doing the same thing in the UK will not help!

Well, not one to be controversial, but I would rather fly in the same airspace as this “Toerag” (come come) or “Muppet” than fly with all of you perfect Airmen that never make mistakes and therefore never have to learn from them. As for someone who’s signature says “descend BELOW decision height with caution” (I hope that has a touch of irony there AfirmBrest) what can I say! A couple of weeks ago I shared the airspace with someone who was flying a Learjet between Luton and Lydd, VFR at 2400’. That’s right, the same 2400’ where we all sit around London fat dumb and happy not expecting a Learjet up our jacksy. I believe this “professional” Pilot flew VFR to save a few quid on en-route charges. Sure makes me happy to know there are professionals out there (NOT)

I would much rather share with someone who has made a mistake, sat down and analyzed what he did wrong (okay, maybe he got the analysis a bit wrong), then tried to warn others by voluntarily writing to CHIRP.

We seem to be very quick to hang people out to dry here just lately.

Nimbus - an excellent reply, the same hour 1500 times!
Newbloke, sorry, but this a PROFESSIONAL pilots rumour network. We all at least should try to be professional. We are not hanging this guy out to dry, but using it as a human resources example of someone who appears to have made a mistake, analysed it, then come to wholy the wrong conclusions. Try reading more deeply into his wording and intonation in the article. Good replies, guys.

BTB, Where did I say we SHOULDN’T try to be professional. There is NO other way to fly. My point is, this chap made a mistake and tried to warn others about the same mistake. What about the Pilot of the Cessna that passed a few feet below and behind this Pilot? Forgetting rules of the air, he would have had an Aircraft (reading between the lines a Europa, not the largest of Aircraft I grant you) in his One-O-Clock and should have made an attempt to avoid it by more than a few feet. What was wrong with HIS Lookout. Where is the CHIRP that says “I was flying along in my Cessna when suddenly….” At least this guy writes in to CHIRP and acknowledges that he has made a mistake. As I said, I think he has analyzed it slightly wrongly and like every one else I am alarmed that he thought answering a radio call was more important than looking at something his passenger has pointed out.

How many times have we taken a newbe flying and explained to them that if they see any Aircraft around to let us know. How many times have we then had to explain that 747s on 10 mile final to LHR don’t count. Sometimes (especially when we are new to the radio), it can be a bit intimidating talking to ATC. I don’t mean that as a criticism of ATC, but I remember when you could fly over LGW and talk to LGW approach. I was just about to key my mike when I heard “Speedbird nnn blah blah ….” I turned from the competent super cool Mr Ace Pilot into a stuttering wreck. I suspect this Bloke was just trying to sound as if he knew what he was doing. As I said, as crimes go this is far better than someone flying VFR through then narrow 10 mile wide strip north of London at 2400’ VFR in a super fast jet that has the visibility of most commercial Aircraft.

NewBloke,
We're not hanging him out to dry, but read the article and from the very beginning he was an accident waiting to happen.
He sounds more like a student pilot than someone with a licence.
Rarely uses the radio, and admits that he was a bit apprehensive about his 'first' X-C.
More interested in his readback than looking for traffic, even though his passenger warned him. (Who knows, if the guy in the Cessna was as oblivious, there could have been a nasty incident?).
Considers himself an 'expert' at his local field, so how much different can it be somewhere else!
We all make mistakes, but he seems to put the blame everywhere except where it belongs! ATC should appreciate people like him? He comes across as a big ego who thinks he knows it all. No one should be flying along 'fat dumb and happy' and not expecting a Learjet, or anything else, to appear. You should always expect it! I regularly fly in some of the busiest airspace in the world, as well as in more remote areas, I don't think I'd want that guy plonking around with his head down anywhere near me!

By the way, this is the first time I've heard of the 'Chrips' program. Is it a 'get-out-of-jail-free' card like the FAA version?

I would have thought from the replies here we were talking about 2 separate articles, so I decided to read it for myself. I don't fly in the UK so the procedural matters of what sort of surveillance or otherwise was or should be available elude me.

This pilot, from his own statement, has flown fixed wing (GpA?) for about 1 year, mostly local. His main experience seems to be micro (ultra)lights and NORDO. His tone doesn't seem arrogant to me - perhaps I mix with a different species :).

He has written this article and attempted to learn thereby. Additionally it has raised the matter for debate - here if nowhere else. From my own experience, confessional exercises are hard. I would suggest some praise for that alone - he didn't have to write and lay himself open to personal attacks.

The technical or procedural rights and wrongs are another issue and best addressed by those with local knowledge.

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New Block
I disagree with you. This pilot, regardless of being an instructor with 1500h is inexperience when it comes to X country flying. He/she admits for not using R.T for long and still did not open the book for a refresh, hence, no idea about the differences between the levels of service. I think that this pilot is so confidence with his/her ability (he/she might be a brilliant pilot) neglects the obvious and the simple things. If one does not use something regularly one loses currency.

AC_DC We don’t disagree. I objected to the terms of abuse that were being heaped on this man/Woman and the way he was being vilified. Of course you can’t get competent at RT by opening a book, likewise you can’t regain your currency.

Look let me make this clear. I would rather not share my Airspace with anyone. Every time I fly I want all of you to sod off and land, but that won’t happen, neither will only professional pilots be flying while I am up there. The point I was making is I would rather be up there with someone who has recognized he has faults than with some of the Super Pilot contributors on this forum that never ever ever make the slightest mistake. As to Professional pilots, I stick by my comment about the Lear jet. Just because you get paid to fly doesn’t make you a professional.

Hey, New Bloke!
I hope you're not referring to me as a 'Super Pilot contributor' :)
I'd love to claim that honor, but can't!
I once was cleared to land and was making a perfect approach. Airspeed and glidepath nailed, very much a professional, competent, pilot.
Only slight problem, (minor detail, really!) I was at the wrong airport! The Tower I was talking to was 20 miles away! No wonder they couldn't see me! (That was only one mistake! I've got a few others!)

We (I?) were not heaping abuse on the pilot in question. Merely commenting on his/her actions, and the impression he/she gave in that article. Maybe its nice to be nice, but if I make a stupid mistake and don't realize it, I'm grateful if someone points it out, even if its not gentle!

You're right about the professional pilot remark, by the way!