How to?.....
 

All,

Any ideas where I can find some good literature on 'how to start your own flying group'. What are the ups & downs, do's & don't etc. I don't mind if its books, or web info.

I thinking of a group of maybe 6-8 people, on a light single.

Any help would be appreciated. :)

[This message has been edited by Flyswift (edited 19 January 2001).]

Have a look at:-

the "buying an aircraft" thread here, which has some info on groups

the "Group Flying" forum on the Flyer website

articles in the mags recently (currently one in Flyer (edit: Pilot not Flyer) about the contractual aspects of group operation, one a year or so ago about "172 in a group" flying).

[This message has been edited by FNG (edited 19 January 2001).]

I got some great tips from a book called "Airplane Ownership" by Ronald J. Wanttaja. There's a whole section on partnerships, leasebacks and forming clubs.

Flyswift

as above - just to add theres a useful page on agreements for owners groups in the new - feb - issue of pilot.
Every bit helps!

Thanks......I'll check out your recommendations.

Look at this month's Pilot Mag.

The PFA publish a very good book called... Group Flying... what a suprise :)

Lots of good stuff

Where is your Group going to be based and what are you going to fly?

B

Either North Weald or Elstree. Plane will be a PA28 or similar.

C'ya

Flyer also did an Article on this a few months back, give em a ring!

Rusty

found a book whilst in glasgow on a nightstop called...

Aircraft Partnership" by geza szurovy.
distributed by airlife publishing
www.books.megraw-hill.com

very good. even got a sample spreadshhet to work out cost for differing number of members and hours used

Has anyone any experience of/recommendations for the various online group aircraft booking systems available? Thanks

FNG...
I wasn't aware of the existence of such systems!
Tell me more.

Just completing our own bespoke web booking system which will be commercially available very soon.
The system offers 24 hr booking with individual password protection for each member. Only the member who has made the booking may cancel it.
All cancellations are automatically e.mailed to the other group members.
Also, there is a bulletin board to promote communication between members and a web site presentation of the aircraft if required.
Not bad for a tenner a month :)

Have a look at the prototype...
http://www.flying-groups.co.uk
Make some bookings or cancellations if you like, it is all fictional at the moment...
Member1 password is password1 (low case).

Let us know what you think.

B

Two tips for you:-

- Don't trust anybody,especially maintenance outfits,many are worse than the proverbial used car salesman!

- Don't enter into ANY lend/lease agreements or arrangements with ANY flying school nomatter how well you think you know/trust them.It results in a very tired,shabby looking aircraft with extemely high hours and a very low bank account! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

Anyway enough pessimism,ditch the Pa-28/spamcan idea and look into PFA Types,many modern designs can offer better performance for a much reduced cost ,good luck!

Thanks Beagler, I will check out your site. I was under the impression that there were other online systems but may have dreamt this. Either that or heard about your prototype somewhere although can't think where.

"dont trust maintenace outfits" is the quote from negative g ,my inital reaction to this statment was the guy is talking cr*p but after a cup of tea and a think i can see how he got this attitude.

Some time back i was asked to do the annual check on an aircraft that had been looked after by a very small outfit with a reputation for being cheap , of the 30 or so AD,s AND SB,s required by law to be actioned none were done or had been done at the required time a number of these checks invoved flying controls and other saftey critical items.
Having done all the checks and compleated the annual the owner was sent a bill IRO £3500 ,he exploded at us accusing us of ripping him off and of making unnessesary work and that an annual check should only cost £700.

It will not suprize you all to know that next year he returned to the man who would just wipe an oily cloth across his aircraft.

Not long ago the the man,s aircraft was subject to a saftey critical flight control AD i just wonder if it will ever get looked at and if it ever bothers him when he is flying but i supose that he thinks that he has a good deal with his £700 annual.

I am now retaind by a group with 3 aircraft to look over the maintenance bills and oversee some of the bigger jobs such as repaints and engine changes and of all the reputable maintenance companys they have used i have not had reason to despute more than a few hours work and some of the spare parts prices.

All told the aircraft engineering in the UK is not a rip off and works to a high standard ,the only person that most owners need protection from is them self,s

The bottom line is you get what you pay for and with the cost of work in the southern UK at around £35 per hour i think the aircraft owner is getting a good deal , perhaps some one can tell me what the hourly rate is at the local BMW dealers.

[This message has been edited by A and C (edited 23 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by A and C (edited 23 January 2001).]

I haven't used these online booking systems but they may be worth looking at...
http://www.qudiem.co.uk/bookings.htm
http://airbook.net

Having been in flying groups over the years i believe books are a good start but chats with engineers at the airfield where you intend to be based are essential.Spamcans may be bland but if you intend starting a group with the minimum of risk then consider a C152 or C172 no new group member wants grief because the aircraft is grounded through lack of parts availability or maintainance costs.Cowboys exist in aviation engineering companies just as they exist in the motor trade so teaming up with a terrible engineering company maintaining an unusual aircraft may start off being ok but end up costing you loads of money and stress.Keep an open mind because for example at Shoreham on the south coast at the moment it is so competitive and cheap to hire an aircraft from a flying club that to invest a large sum in a group share is not worthwhile.

A and C
I'm glad you realised that I was'nt talking "cr*p" with regard to your selective use of quotations from my last message.It appears that you elected to omit the key word of the statement, that being "many".Many does not mean all!
I have no qualms over the cost & quality of the 'majority' of work which is carried out here in the U.K,and I have certainly never compromised safety with regard to AD's etc...
My comments stemmed not from the actual maintenance done,but from being blatantly ripped off, for example:-

-Being told on a 50 hr that my battery needed replacing due to a "dropped cell".Innocently I forked out for a new one,only by pure chance to see my 'old' one (A/C Reg wrote on it)two years later in another aircraft which was also maintained by the same "maintenance outfit",naughty,naughty.

-Again on delivery for a 50hr the tanks had been filled,however on collection there was barely 1/4 tanks remaining,this loss was put down to extensive ground running,it was also a coincidence that the tacho had accumulated only 20mins!!!!What time is the next Banana boat due?

Those where only my personal reasons which led towards my original statement,however in listening to conversations across the country there are many more similar tales being told!
It appears that you are very fortunate in being involved with reputable organisations,however corruption occurs in all walks of life,aviation maintenance is no different! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

The very reason that i am asked to oversee maintenance is to avoid the cowboys but they are few and far between , how ever the people who get ripped of are by and large those who are trying to get the work done on the cheap.

I have also seen one large outfit make work by investigating a problem that was trivia and had i not been engaged by the owner to give a second opinion a few lose 3/32 rivets would have turned into a major structure job running into thousands of pounds.

I dont think that in this case it was a rip off was intended as the inspector had nothing to gain but pulling him up short will have improved his standards of inspection no end.

What i have not seen in a long time is the down right dishonesty discribed above perhaps it is because after 20 years in GA i know the places not to go.