COST OF KEEPING PA38
 

I'LL HAVE MY PPL BY MAY'2001 AND WANT TO RACK UP QUITE A FEW HOURS. I'M CONSIDERING BUYING A PLANE SAY PA38/28 OR EQUIV.
I AM CLOSE TO BIGGIN HILL. ANYONE KNOW ROUGH COST OF PARKING/MAINTENANCE/INSURANCE?
OR
IS IT CHEAPER USING A CLUB PLANE?
OR
ANY BETTER IDEAS?

MANY THANKS.

I'd definitely NOT buy an aircraft outright.Buy a share in a group owned aircraft.I am buying a share in an old 150 for about £1200 and although there are 19 others in the group,the availability of the aircraft is almost as if I owned it outright due to the fact that in group,there are people who really don't use it very much.Of course I am lucky in that I can fly on weekdays.
To own an aircraft outright is one hell of a financial headache and not worth the bother in my opinion.I would go as far as to say that even hiring at club rates is preferable.
BTW,the hourly rate on our 150 is £25 wet AND it will be much easier to sell a shar than to sell an aircraft when the time comes.

SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT DEAL, BUT
IF SOMETHING NASTY HAPPENS TO IT, DO YOU ALL
HAVE TO COUGH UP 1/19TH OR IS THAT COVERED IN THE HOURLY CHARGE?
HOW DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT THAT DEAL?

THANKS AGAIN.
P.S. IT'S NOT AT BIGGIN BY ANY FAT CHANCE

Most well run groups will charge themselves a couple of quid extra per flying hour to build up an emergency fund.Worth asking this when considering joining a group.Also ask how much spare they have in the kitty.Most small mishaps can be covered by this fund if it is big enough,but if something major such as complete engine replacement is needed (V.unlikely I would have thought) then its a case of hands in pockets for £500 quid each for a reconditioned engine.If you own it on your own,you have the same chance of needing an engine replacement and the prospect of finding a HUGE sum of cash on your own.
Most of the maintenance is taken care of the £30 a month standing charge we put into the group,and any left over goes into the emergency fund.Like I say,try to find a well-run group (unfortunately we are in the North)but really there are LOADS of cheap shares available advertised in flying mags and even more on the flying club notice boards.
If,however,you DO choose to buy outright,I would certainly consider a PFA type rather than a CofA type.Much cheaper.
Best of luck
El Cid

The last time I went into it (about 15 months ago) the fixed costs of owning a single engined aeroplane was in the region of £5000, ie £100 per week for insuance and hangaring.
This excludes the actual flying time costs and unexpected wear and tear and unexpected big bills.
The more you fly the more this overhead is spread out and the hourly rate becomes lower.

Believe it or not, you will fly less than you think in a year... I am considered pretty active... just under 100 hrs last year.
This is where group flying comes into it's own... you all share the fixed/maintenance costs and pay for your flying individually.
But be careful... groups are like marriages... make sure you are happy with the other members.

Also make sure that they will be able to accomoadate your flying ambitions... you will probably be buying a share from someone who has lost interest and has not been active, therefore the others will have to make way for new active member.

Make sure that the vendor isn't selling up because he/she knows of a big bill on it's way like an engine... don't get involved with an engine on an "extension" unless the share is VERY cheap.

Sorry to go on, I could probably write a book on group flying if I haven't already.

Oh yes... you are doing the right thing in thinking ahead about where, when and how you are going to continue flying when you get your PPL... too many students drift away after qualifying.

I got my PPL a year ago, and flew club planes because I didn't have the cash to buy a plane or even a share.

But there are groups around that don't require a capital investment - either taking a refundable deposit or just a monthly fee (plus hourly usage charge). The only potential problem here is that they may want a minimum of 100 hours experience or an IMC. Depending on the balance between the monthly fee and hourly rate, it should work out cheaper than club hire if you fly more than 2 hours a month (but don't forget to build home landing fees into the equation - where I fly from, they are included in the price of club aircraft and do mount up when you do circuits).

I was lucky enough to join a group with low monthly (£20) and hourly charges (£55) and was also able to get named insurance coverage on less than 100 hours. In the 4 months since I joined the group I have flown our plane 26 hours - I had intended to fly about 30-40 hours this year and have now done over 60!

My advice would be to assess realistically how many hours you want to fly, and what sort of flying you want to do. Then by looking at the ads in Pilot or Flyer, you can start to work out costs based on the aircraft available for sharing and make a more informed choice. Hour building in a C152 will be a lot cheaper than in an Arrow, but you won't go so far or so fast!

I hope this helps. Good luck with your PPL.

Happiness is a £100 hamburger

You are right... I suppose that it is all about what you are going to do long term.
Don't forget that the log book records hours not distance and if it's hours for that airline job you are after then you will be better spending £50 an hour in a 150 than £120 per hour in a complex.

Myself... I don't think I currently have ambitions other than passing medicals... (:

£100 cheese toasties are a delicacy!

JT if you are hours building why rent? There is a Fred (yes, that's right Fred, it's a single seat, parasol winged, fabric covered little cutie and no, it's not mine) for sale in the PFA magazine for £3,800. VW engine, slow and will take off/land on a postage stamp. Operating costs about £10/hour fuel & oil. Annual inspection costs about £200. No electrics, flaps etc to go wrong. Hangerage varies from £50-130/month depending on area, insurance around £300-£500 per year. You have to work out where your breakeven point comes between renting and buying something like a Fred based on the hours you are going to fly. Don't forget, you can sell the plane for what you paid for it when you want to move on.

Check out the classifieds on the PFA website at http://www.pfa.org.uk.



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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...

JT Don't buy a PA38 Traumahawk unless you are ABSOLUTELY 100% DEFINITELY AND COMPLETELY sure that all the AD's are complied with. Those things attract AD's like !!!!! draws flies.

------------------
When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...

Joe

They are not known solely as Traumahawks because of the A/Ds [though this is a very good reason to avoid them.]

If you haven't flown one, I would do so before buying one and see if you are happy with it's stalling habits [and the twanging noises from the back during recovery.]

Happy flying.

Joe

If you are building hours towards a particular threshold but then looking to progress into a different avenue of aviation (eg hours building to CPL etc) remember that aeroplanes are not easily tradeable commodities. Selling takes time, maybe more time than you have. There is not exactly a huge number of people who can afford to purchase aeroplanes.

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, buying into a Group is like a marriage - but it is also business. Treat it as an investment to the same extent as you would closely scrutinise any private investment. If the rules of the Group seem unclear or informal, be aware that if you have a dispute, you may be up for a lengthy battle with your co-owners - with your hard-earned money sunk into a share of an aeroplane - resolution of which requires expensive legal help. If you treat your co-owners as business partners first, friends second, you may avoid falling into situations that can result in heartache.

All that said, there are many very professionally run Groups the rules of which are crystal clear - if everyone knows the score, there is less scope for confusion or disagreement.

By the way, don't be put off by the stalling characteristics of a PA38 - it makes it a much more interesting aeroplane to fly than a 152 and sharpens your reaction-times. It has much better visibility too!

Here we go ,more PA 38 bashing why do you guys not like the only cheap american trainer that spins properly ?.
Yes the thing has atracted a few AD,s but that has to be balanced with the ease of some maintenance tasks.
If you are going to buy eny aircraft find a licenced engineer who you can trust and get him to look the thing over for you it WILL save you money.

what is so strange about the PA38 stall anyway?I have heard rumours about it but what actually is the problem?

I learnt to fly in a Tomahawk and it is the best in my opinion (if it counts) it just tends to drop a wing at the stall, but if I can master it anyone can!!!
In fact if you learn on a PA38 you can fly anyting, I converted to a Warrior in 1 hour.
As for cost to run I just like red wine...LOTS of red wine!!

PA38

[This message has been edited by PA38 (edited 09 September 2000).]

I'm doing my PPL in a PA38 and love the little bugger, but that's beside the point - what on earth are A/Ds??

Airworthiness Directives - prescibed by regulatory bodies such as the FAA or CAA post-manufacture containing mandatory directives as to the subject aeroplane to correct or address actual or suspected defects in design, systems, components etc. As an aircraft owner, AD's usually mean spending significant money to comply with the subject of the directive.

A & C

Please note that I wasn't PA38 bashing - simply suggesting that Joe "tries before he buys."

Talking to other pilots, it seems to me that some people love the PA38 and others hate it.

That doesn't make it a bad aeroplane, but I think that a forum such as this can help the new pilot by offering a balanced view and helping them to decide for themselves.

My own introduction to powered flying was on a PA38-112 at SECOAT [anyone remember them?]

Thanks to everyone for your input, i've
checked this thread daily and have i'm sure received some very sound advice. Not wanting
to gush here(budweisers taking a hold
me thinks) but what a decent bunch you seem to be.

I am training on a PA38 and up until now thought all planes flopped on their side at
the stall.

Needless to say a part ownership scheme is now what i'll be looking for.

forgive disjointed reply - don't drink and think.
jt

Joe

I notice that you mentioned buying into a PA28 or 38. If you are learning on a 38, again you may wish to try the 28 before committing, as they have a very different feel, no doubt because one was designed as a slightly challenging trainer and the other as a low end tourer.

Depending on your needs, you might find the PA28 a little pedestrian [although I have to declare my own position and say that I prefer to the PA38.]

Depending on where you are located, there is also an outfit named Skysport, who operate our of Elstree and North Weald with Pups and a Bulldog [they usually advertise in Flyer/Pilot, and seem to offer shares] - might be worth a look, Pups are very good fun to fly.

Enjoy your flying and good luck with the rest of the course.