It is late on a Saturday and I have just got back from an evening with friends but felt that I had to explain how an archaic practice seems to have kept me and others alive for many years.
Let's not forget that it is the wing that stalls... not the rudder and elevator (unless you are exceptionally clumsy), so they will always offer some input.
Close to the stall, eg on final approach, when the wing is closer to the stalling angle, further aileron deflection could cause the critical angle to be exceeded and the opposite effect to that intended will be experienced... ie further wing drop leading to a dreaded spin from a stalled wing.
Alternative use of the rudder will yaw the aircraft and increase lift over the problem area.
I believe that modern designs have virtually eliminated the problem but surely students should be taught this method because we all jump into older, les forgiving aircraft at sometime which will bite the unwary pilot.
As I have said before... there are no hard and fast rules in this game... keep the aircraftwithin the envelope.

The effect of aileron deflexion causing the effect you describe can only happen beyond the stall. At normal approach speeds this will not happen.
I can only conclude that you have been very lucky if you have been using such strange techniques. Perhaps the new JAA requirement for a biennial training flight with an FI is not such a bad idea after all!

Don't forget though that it was an FI who taught us this in the first place.
El Cid

Altitude? Speed? Cub's don't have them! Seriously though, wing down is much easier for a taildragger, kicking off drift and getting straight and into a 3-point attitude is too complicated for this simple person. Fortunately the Cub sideslips quite well which is just as well seeing as there are no flaps. I think that if the x-wind is strong enough to necessitate a wheeler landing you should be landing somewhere else.

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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...

Regarding reviews... I always have an ANNUAL review on a voluntary basis usually in Oct/November in readiness for the winter weather... incidentally the guy who reviews me (and insists on this technique) has "luckily" stayed alive for over 17,000 hours (yes thousand) in GA aircraft, not long haul airliners.
I believe that the Trevor Thom basic training manuals recommend this technique also.
Regarding older designs, for example be careful of the early taper wing Warriors... I flew a 150 and it wanted to drop the right wing on the stall... I held it level with the mythical opposite rudder!
I believe a pilot not sufficiently aware of this technique would get into a lot of trouble... Warriors are difficult to get out of a spin.
The problem seems to have been addressed by the engineers and the later 160s don't appear to suffer the problem. I have noticed a low fence on the right leading edge of a sister 160.
I still maintain there are no hard and fast rules and your perceived sticking to a rule "set in stone" could be more dangerous than my feet pushing the rudder bar.

Perhaps Bookworm can help here

I am very much with BEagle on this (what with Beagler and BEagle being so similar but diametrically opposed in their views, hope I've got the right one!)

If a wing drops on final - I pick it up with aileron and at the same time put in the commensurate amount of rudder to keep the ball centred, OR 'cause I have no flaps and slip it in, keep the side slip the same.

My a/c stalls at 63mph but I run down final at 90mph (42% faster than stall speed) I recall Thom suggesting that you use 1.3 times stall speed. If the wing drops at anything above 70 on a stabilised 1G approach, then it can not have stalled, so I just fly the aeroplane normally. I used 70 as a guide because side slipping affects my ASI accuracy - with the pitot pointing obliquely into relative wind it tends to under read so 70 gives me a fair margin.

Do I detect two camps here? One the military trained, the other civvy trained. Bet BEagle didn't learn on Cessnas!

sNr

sNr - actually, I did learn to fly on Cessnas (after having done a little bit of gliding - not with the ATC!!).
At the Bedfordshire Air Centre we used brand-new Cessna 150s and were taught extremely well. I don't recall being taught to 'pick up a wing with rudder' - but I was taught spin entry and recovery and always to be careful with the rudder at the stall, using it only to maintain balance by keeping the ball in the middle. 'Step on the ball', Mr Singh used to exhort me!
The technique described by sNr is 100% spot on; it is what I was taught and is what I teach others on both little spamcans and great big 4-jets!

Wing down gives you crossed controls on the approach anyway. Given how ineffective Cub (and most older light aircraft) ailerons are, using the rudder to stop a wing drop due to gusts is a much more natural reaction. As beagler says, it accelerates the dropped wing and thus picks it up. Maybe it's also something to do with the fact that taildragger drivers realise that the rudder pedals are more than just a convenient place to rest your feet.

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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...

Hi Beagle and others -
When I learned in a Tiger Moth with an ex-wartime RAF QFI it was definitely 'stick in the middle, pick up dropped wing with rudder.' And the Tiger has a huge rudder (for ground taxying I guess)and crap ailerons.
Conversely, we were also taught that a good way to kill yourself turning on to finals was let the speed get a bit low, and try to hold up the nose with top rudder. We had to do this as an excercise and indeed the old bird would tend to heave over and spin the other way, which made the point.

Hi Beagle and others,
When I learned on a Tiger Moth with an ex-wartime RAF QFI, it was very definitely 'stick centred, pick up wing with rudder'. And the Tiger has a huge rudder (presumably for ground handling)and crap ailerons.

Paradoxically we were told that a good way to kill yourself was to turn finals at too low an airspeed and hold the nose up with top rudder. We had to try this as an excercise and indeed the old bird would heave itself over and spin readily the other way.

yours, confused,
gv

After having pondered this point for a couple of days now,I think I can see where my confusion arises from.On re-readind various long forgotten flight training manuals,I have come to the conclusion that the only thing the rudder should be used for in the stall is to MAINTAIN balanced flight.I know that this goes against my previous postings,but I now recognize that when a wing drops at the stall,the nose of the aircraft will yaw in that direction,therefore the correct application of opposite rudder serves merely to stop said yaw,therefore remaining within the correct function of the rudder,that of maintaining balance.This yaw prevention with rudder has been confusing me into thinking that I am preventing the wing dropping further,when in actual fact I am simply preventing further yaw leading to an incipient spin.
El Cid

And by stopping the nose yawing, the secondary effect of which is a de-accelerating wing, you re-accelerate the downgoing wing relative to it's previous speed.

Sounded good when I wrote it!!

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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...

And if it does start to spin:

close the throttle FULLY

opposite rudder to direction of yaw (turn needles are far more illustrative than wee aeroplanes in the T&B - even inverted, the needle still shows direction of yaw)

fwd stick to unstall

then

fly it away or vertical down line if its a comp maneouver

I spent a happy hour spinning one evening last week,

erect to the L
erect to the R
erect with outspin aileron
erect with throttle advanced
erect with outspin aileron and throttle

Power on makes the biggest difference

I tried the Muller-Beggs recovery and found that it worked well but not as quickly as if I initiated the recovery. (This was more gut feel, counting elephants and observing the altimeter than a scientific experiment).

Once I've had some inverted dual as a refresher I shall try the above and let you know how M-B works - it should be just the same?

sNr (who elected to make wardrobe doors today so that he can go out and play tomorrow)

And if it does start to spin:

close the throttle FULLY

opposite rudder to direction of yaw (turn needles are far more illustrative than wee aeroplanes in the T&B - even inverted, the needle still shows direction of yaw)

fwd stick to unstall

then

fly it away or vertical down line if its a comp maneouver

I spent a happy hour spinning one evening last week,

erect to the L
erect to the R
erect with outspin aileron
erect with throttle advanced
erect with outspin aileron and throttle

Power on makes the biggest difference

I tried the Muller-Beggs recovery and found that it worked well but not as quickly as if I initiated the recovery. (This was more gut feel, counting elephants and observing the altimeter than a scientific experiment).

Once I've had some inverted dual as a refresher I shall try the above and let you know how M-B works - it should be just the same?

sNr (who elected to make wardrobe doors today so that he can go out and play tomorrow)

"Step on the ball" was what BEagle was taught.
"The rudder bar is not a footstool" was what I was taught along with Low N Slow...
We weren't taught just to fly Spam cans with the vices designed out of them.
On thing is for sure is that none of us should let the speed drop dangerously low on approach.
This way we should all stay alive.
But beware the club Cessna/Piper pilot jumping into a Cub or Moth!
The thing is surely not to dismiss all techniques without consideration but listen, consider, practice and keep learning.
Keep the aeroplane within the envelope, be aware of what is happenning... monkey see, monkey do must be the worst type of training.
I am taking everything in but for now will continue using the rudder... a very underused control surface in my view.

Going back a bit (not been in front of the PC for a few days), thanks Skyvan. Your simply put example makes total sense and underlines that you should not believe all (or maybe any!) of what you hear in the Clubroom.

Beagler, spot on. My PPL instructor preferred tailwheel and he taught me to land trikes like taildraggers (except for the very last bit) so when he converted me onto the Cub it wasn't too hard once I got used to not seeing where I was going and Tiggering all over the place!

I first started on the ARV Super 2. Lovely little plane for a tin trike. Handled beautifully with great vis. Shame it climbed like a stunned pig. Cessnas were a disappointment after it.

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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...

Well, Beagler, couldn't agree more that the rudder is a hugely underused control surface by most folk! Having done my original flying on the C150, fortunately well taught, my conversion onto the dear old Chipmunk reinforced the correct use of rudder. Although I was fortunate enough to fly from a grass field, we were invariably required to fly 3-pointers rather than wheelers, so the crab, flare and yaw technique became ingrained. But I agree that if you don't get it quite right, the only possible solution is quickly to adopt the 'wing down' into wind technique to stop the aeroplane drifting off the side of the runway! Or to have flown a 'wheeler' in the first place. Incidentally, the old chaps who used to fly Lancs were amazed that the RAF BBMF used to try and 3-point theirs.
Summer grass, tailwheels and Gypsy engines.......I think we agree, chum!!

(Edited for a couple of spooling miskates!)

[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 28 August 2000).]

We agree!

See you later,
hopefully off Beagling,

B

We do indeed! I'm looking forward to a bit of Cubbing at the weekend.

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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...