flying motor gliders
 

I am a group A licence holder does this cover me to fly touring motor gliders?
If not what sort of training is required and would flying one keep my group A licence valid?
and finally has anyone any experience of flying a Fournier RF5?
So there you have it three questions in one post, hows that for economical interrogation of the prune network? (oops thats another)
All answers gratefully recieved and no prizes for the winner!
Cheers

To fly a TMG you need a TMG rating on your licence. To get it you need to do some training and then a skill test with an examiner. I believe there is some information on this subject if you go to the FCL website. Flew an RF5 some time ago, nice bit of kit! Good handling, good engine off performance, 3 position prop, retractable gear and folding wings.

Forgot to mention, the training is likely to consist of the following :-
Engine starting and stopping in flight, using starter and dive starting.
Glide circuits.
Field landings or PFLs.
Soaring techniques.
Use of the 3 position prop.
Approach control using airbrakes if you're not familiar with them.
Tail dragger handling techniques.
Stall and spin if appropriate.
Stuff like that!!!

I cant understand the atraction of the motorglider its the worst of both worlds ,gliding is great fun and so is powerd flying but both need aircraft that are optomised for that type of flight.

Advantages are:-
Very, very cheap to run 2.5 gph.
Can fix it myself, ( got the BGA ticket ).
Easy to fly.
Fun to fly.
Capable of touring ( been to S France in one)
Will glide engine off, but not v well if T61F
Semi-aerobatic - loops and stuff.
Cheap spares, insurance etc.

The cheap ones like mine (T61F) are just fun machines, they don't pretend to be a Discus or a Firefly. Best money I've ever spent!

A & C
Have a look at the Stemme S10 and then say that again.
The Ogar in which I have a share has a glide angle of about 28:1 which is about the same as the Oly 2b I did my Silver in.

Mike W

Back to the original question. There is no such thing as a Group A, it was replaced by a Single Engine Piston SEP rating in 1999, and is now in your licence not your log book.

To fly a motor glider you have two options obtain either a TMG or a SLMG rating much as described above, involving training plus a test.
I recommend the TMG rating because it is valid for 24 months. Once you have this and your SEP rating, they can both be revalidated using the same flights on either Class of aircraft.
The SLMG rating is valid for 13 months and has to be revalidated seperately.

I have just got the TMG rating on a Rotax Falke SF25c - an interesting beast after a Tiger Moth.It requires some different techniques but nothing paricularly difficult to get to grips with. This machine is available at the London Gliding Club and can be seen at www.fffoundation.co.uk

------------------

RF5. Ah... Now there's an aeroplane.
Superb design, construction, finish & equipment (ex-factory)
Reliable, economical 68hp VW engine.
Easy & cheap to maintain.
45ft glider wing, tips fold for hangarage., (but tricky to taxi in resticted spaces)
Long take-off run, gentle climb-away, so-so rate-of-climb.
But when you're up there -
Panoramic view from a comfortable seat, front or back.
Excellent, stable, touring A/C.
Smooth as silk. Quiet.
400 mls range at 110 mph.
Graceful aerobatics - huge loop & barrel-roll. (no slow-rolls, flicks, and .
difficult to spin).
Silent, engine-off soaring on a good thermal day.
A real lady.
Try one, buy one - if you can find one.
And enjoy!
WS

More about the RF5 -
The one with the variable-pitch prop is the RF5B. Fine pitch gives brisker take-off acceleration and a slightly shorter run.
Feather for soaring.
5B has a longer, 56ft wing and the canopy is bubble-shaped instead of faired into the rear fuselage.
5B soars better - 1:26 glide ratio, against the RF5's 1:20, but -
Fuel capacity 8.4 gals against the RF5's 13.8 gals, so range much less.
Other wise pretty much the same.
Happy landings.
WS

ps Neither is a small-field A/C

[This message has been edited by White Shadow (edited 23 March 2001).]

Having got one of the first SEPL ratings to issued in early 1999 (should I be proud of that?), I subsequently added a TMG later that year. It was confusing then and there still seem to be some grey areas. Don't want to put myself up as the complete expert here, but I and a friend of mine did go around the houses on this quite a bit (including a period of almost flying illegally without a valid rating).

It makes a difference whether you do in fact have a traditional "Group A" rating on your licence (ie. you completed your PPL before Jan 1 1999), or whether you have a "Single engine, piston, land" (SEPL) rating, either on a UK PPL or on a JAR licence. It's the type of rating you have that's important. An SEPL does not automatically replace an existing Group A.

If you have a SEPL, then you will need to do a skill test (which replaces the old NFT & GFT) following a "period of training" doing such things as described earlier. In practice, it seems that just the GFT bit is tested. You'll then have to apply to the CAA for the addition of the TMG rating using the appropriate form, enclosing the inevitable fee! (was £63). The CAA will then add the rating to the ratings page in your licence.

If you have a "Group A" rating, then in theory this already includes the SLMG and all you need to do is get the log book signed or whatever - no need to involve the CAA.

I don't think you have choice - SLMG is not recognised under JAR so you can't add it to an SEPL, and don't THINK you can add a TMG to a Group A.

Not sure how you do this, but if you could convert your Group A to a SEPL, then the benefit is that the SEPL and TMG ratings are the only two ratings where the CAA re-validation requirements are mutually inclusive - ie. you can maintain one with the other.

That's the theory, and its what the CAA blurb seems to suggest, but in practice, it has proved difficult to clarify the rules exactly, and find someone happy to sign one off on the strength of the other.

There is still grey areas - when I did the TMG test, there weren't any qualified TMG examiners, and I suspect that still may be the case. Issue was that most of the SLMG guys were doing it under the BGA scheme, and were not CPLs - to be a TMG examiner you need to be.

In practice it seems to work out OK - don't know where you are based, but Ray Brownrigg at Enstone (Oxford Sport Flying) is a good man and would be happy to sort you out or at least advise further.

One further thought re training/familiarisation - a lot of motor gliders are NOT short field machines. They are generally underpowered light aircraft, that get their performance from low drag.

The low rate of climb can bite you - beware high temp, high pressure altitude, and high humidity. You don't have a huge margin to start with - if the conditions knock 25% off performance, you will notice it much more than your average GroupA machine.

Throw in a light or nil wind and its effect on climb angle....

Watch the TORA and TODA!

Having said all that, I think they are great fun ... go for it.

Jasper.

All Group A ratings changed automatically to SEP on the first revalidation after 1 Jan 1999. The Group A rating no longer exists.

A Group A rating never entitled you to fly a SLMG, it has always been a separate rating, you had to pass a GFT on an SLMG in order to get a C of T and activate that part of a UK PPL.

The process is exactly the same now, you have to do a Skill Test (No navigation part)on a TMG to add that rating to a licence. You can add a TMG to either a JAA licence or a CAA licence. You cannot add a SLMG to a JAA licence, but you can still be issued with a National SLMG Licence.

One rating does not cover any other, they are entirely separate and stand alone. The only common point is that if you hold both SEP and TMG, then hours on either count towards revalidating both ratings.