Glad to have woken you up, Mr Stik:)

I would expect any tyro PPL, and not a few experienced ones, would be somewhat disconcerted to see a formation wizzing underneath him as he carries out his final approach.

'Fast' aircraft pilots have established a reputation in many quarters for acting as if they own the sky - but possibly nobody's dared tell them that for fear of the reaction.:ouch: Maybe they should ask themselves why.

happy landings
MB

MB,

I've got to support my formation buddy, Stik, on this one and am saddened to hear you tar all "fast aircraft" pilots with an undeserved brush. Your statement is the same as saying that all microlight pilots are selfish, uninformed, and dangerous cowboys; and we both know that's not true. I'd be interested to hear of personal experiences you've had with pilots conforming to this reputation.

You may have misinterpreted Stik's description as I don't know of any pilot who would be careless enough to bring in a formation under an aircraft on final or interfere with an aircraft on final in any way. Standard procedure if Lead does find a conflict is to stay at circuit height and complete a standard circuit orbit, with an extended downwind, to re-establish a run-in from the initial point.

My experience, as one who has participated in, and led, RIABs is that the pilots concerned are very aware of the active traffic and take great pains to sequence into the circuit to avoid disrupting others. This preparation starts on the ground at the departure point before anyone even gets into a machine, briefing local procedures and circumstances at the destination. Sure, you may get a racey-looking break, but it is usually well planned and done to take full account of other traffic.

Of course there are always exceptions, but as I go out of my way to be where these kinds of things are done, my experience has been as I've described and not as per the reputation you're talking about. I don't think most fast aircraft pilots need to ask themselves about this reputation.

Pitts2112

Generally formation and RIAB's are only carried out by experienced pilots so i would expect that the tyro student wouldnt have much to worry about because the formation is hardly going to go out of their way to harrass him in his 152

All this fuss and emotion over such a simple manoeuvre - why are some people so bothered or frightened by it?

The fact is that anyone joining a circuit (by whatever means) is required to give way to people already in the circuit and, as always to obey the rules of the air. Somebody already in the circuit has less to fear from a VRIAB than from some wally who chooses to fly a straight-in approach to a field without full ATC - and there seem to be an increasing number of those!

As I said earlier, one tangible concern seems to be about the call "initials" - and maybe that's valid; it's simple to cure so lets not use it! For years I've just called "final to break", and sometimes added "30 seconds" or whatever appears appropriate and, if there's an aircraft on final, I usually add that I've seen it.

HFD

OK, so what exactly is so hard for your average PPL to understand about a RIAB? A join via initials is a useful alternative to a standard overhead join, and although developed initially as a military technique, is surely not that hard for anyone with half a brain cell in the family to comprehend. A RIAB is just a development of that technique, employing a slightly tighter circuit. Surely a simple classroom brief on these methods would not overly add to the burden of a PPL course? Don't even get me started on the normal square PPL circuit, generally flown well outside the protection of the ATZ......

I suspect that could make all the difference. In fact why not mention any aircraft you've seen in the circuit. What's scary about flying a slow aircraft when there are fast ones in the vicinity is not knowing what they have in mind and whether you've been seen. With me doing 45kt and you doing 200kt or whatever, I've got no escape if you come at me.

If I don't know you, I don't know if you are sensible or a cowboy (I've met both in my time) and feel I've got to assume the worst. It makes me think of the close up view I once got of a barrel roll across my bows (not in circuit I hasten to add) by a fast aerobatic type. I'd seen the guy coming from my left and he looked as if he'd turned to go behind me, so I continued my lookout scan. Next thing I knew he'd appeared from below and to my left, showed me his belly two or three hundred feet ahead, and then went on his way.

I've never trusted aerobatic types since. As I implied above, if I know you've seen me and if you know the limitations and capabilities of my type, then I doubt I'd have a problem.

... and no, I didn't mean to tar all quck'n'heavy pilots with one brush, but as with yobs in the street, it's the badly behaved ones that get noticed.

MadamB
Let's be friends

MB, although I'm only an "untrustworthy" aerobatic type, please afford me the courtesy of quoting me fully and in context:

I did say zip by you, not underneath you. You in your 45 knot machine would be given a safe half mile lateral seperation and would be quite safe.

Funny - I don't treat all microlighters with the same brush, even those that land unannounced on my strip and walk up asking for tea!

No - the dogs get those!

Stik

Fournicator...

Thank you...someone else who has noticed the new PPL bomber circuit!

I think I've stimulated a debate to show different points of view, which is good, but we're drifting off the essence which isn't.

First, Stik, I'll apologise for misrepresenting you :ouch: - that was a misread on my part just before going to bed. I do not wish to tar all pilots of whatever ilk with one brush, as, I'm sure, neither do you.
Edit by MadamB: re-reading teh thread, I only need to apologise for the bit about saying "wizz underneath", had I written "wizz past" everything else would still apply. I was expecting to be beaten up for my comments and responded accordingly :eek: :ouch:

Other than that, the point I have been trying to make is that slower traffic is vulnerable (and feels vulnerable) to faster traffic, especially in uncontrolled airspace, and by that I include in circuit at fields without ATC.

Maybe what you need to do is to get the CAA to include RIAB terminology in CAP413 and add the procedure to its other documents such as the VFR guide and Safety Sense leaflets (and why not the ANO while we're at it).

Until then, may I humbly suggest that high-energy manouvres have no place within the circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome, unless the pilot knows that there is no other traffic in the vicinity.

MadamB
... and I don't like the growing trend for 'cross-country' circuits either, so we can agree on that. Material for another thread, methinks.

MB - your apology accepted;)

Stik

Yaks and similar types are not fast aircraft. Some people who fly them simply like to think they are. However, these aircraft can be operated safely at quite slow speeds even when in formation. Speed is not an issue.

The simple thing about a run and break is that it is not a civil procedure, it is not published in any civil document and there are no civil R/T procedures for the reporting of such a manoeuvre.

That does not legally prevent one from doing a run and break. Just as it does not prevent a pilot from completing an aerobatic sortie over an airfield. Airmanship may say something different!

However, the law does provide protection to aircraft in the circuit at an airfield. Any aircraft on a run and break is clearly not conforming to the circuit and thus simply has to avoid the circuit traffic. The circuit traffic simply continues with the standard circuit and does not alter the circuit to accomodate the run and break aircraft because they will avoid the circuit.

If anything goes wrong when a run and break is in progress then the leader and wing flights are guaranteed to be responsible provided that the other aircraft have continued to fly the standard circuit.

There is no reason why a run and break can not be done on the dead side at or above circuit height and the aircraft stream over the upwind end of the runway and join downwind as everyone else does. There would be no unusual calls and no need for anyone else to hear or worry about something they do not understand.

There is no other way to look at the run and break at or below circuit height over the active runway other than as a show-off exercise. Something that proper formation training and aerobatic training tries to get pilots to avoid.........unless they have a display authorisation and then that even impresses that the pilots should not simply show-off!!

To sum it up - ignore run and breaks - as far as GA pilots need to be concerned they do not exist. Pilots completing a run and break will avoid the circuit and accept responsibility for anything that goes wrong. Thus the simple answer is - ignore run and breaks.

Regards,

DFC

I think that you have all missed one point that could cause confusion and discomfort for PPLs who are not familiar with RIABS (and why should they be familiar with a non standard practice?)

Students are taught that under the rules of the air, the lowest aircraft (at a non ATC field) has the right of way when landing.

So, taking the scenario given before, a PPL is on final and a fast moving aircraft flies underneath, making radio calls that are without meaning, then should s/he give way as the other aircraft now has the right of way.

Personally, I understand the RIAB, having flown out of North Weald for some years, but others have not/do not.

Your thoughts would be interesting.

A couple of points in answer to recent comments:
- The lower aircraft has right of way when it's approaching to land but not at other times. When inbound to break an aircraft is not approaching to land so does not have ROW; also, it most definitely should not be beneath other aircraft, although it may or may not be lower.
- The path taken is simply the same as a high go-around with an early turn to sequence into the downwind traffic and, if appropriate, a continuous turn onto finals.

There is nothing inherently dangerous in this and IMHO it is much safer and easier than flying a straight-in join/approach.

A final comment for MadameBreakneck - and without wanting to start a war about this - in my experience (as a SEPL, MEPL, microlight and gliding instructor) there are unfortunately rather more "cowboys" in the microlight area than at least the first two. By this I mean people who don't know the laws, break the laws or fly inconsiderately; from your contributions here I'm pretty sure you aren't one of them.

HFD

HFD

Totally understand what you are saying and agree with you, but my point was than a PPL who doesn't recognize the calls and sees something go by lower may well be confused about their intentions and therefore whether to give way.

That's my point, no more nor less.