To IMC or Not IMC
 

Apologies if this subject has been raised before :-

I am thinking of starting an IMC course towards the end of this year and I wanted to get some feedback from those who have or are in the process of getting an IMC rating. I'm trying to determine if it's a worthwhile rating to have considering the time & cost implications of the course and maintaining the rating.

I know one of the arguments for is that due to the vagaries of the British weather it enables you to be confident to regain VFR conditions. However the UK is the only country that has an IMC rating but is not the only country that has changeable weather so why don’t other countries have an IMC?

Any comments? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif


As an aside, does anyone know what happened to the JAA proposed IMC replacement the IWR?

PK

Any additional training that improves your flying skills is worth having, especially if it has additional privileges attached.

Lets say the UK is the only enlightened country.

The JAA did not propose the IWR, it was a UK proposal to modify the IMC rating following two accidents over 6 years ago, it may have been suggested that the JAA might recognise this new rating. It was shelved following consultation with the industry.

There are two schools of thought on this!

The first (and the one I subscribe to) is that it's a useful rating that allows you to fly when there is typical UK weather about. A few clouds in the way don't upset you. And if the wx turns nasty, you can do an ILS etc at your (Class D or lower airspace classification) home field. I think it's great!

The second view is that of quite a few "official" folks, that it's a "get you into trouble" rating that folks use to fly into weather they can't handle. This opinion usually goes with "CAA IMC Rating Examiners will sign off anyone, so the rating is meaningless." I think this is twaddle, but it was promulgated even by the "official" GASCo bulletin a year or so ago, so maybe I'm missing something.

What I'd REALLY like is a UK or JAA IR that wasn't based on vast amounts of theoretical learning to "keep the riffraff out". Something like the FAA IR, with similar renewal processes. But I can't see us getting that, I'm afraid.

My advice is to definitely do it.

The PPL merely lets you fly an aeroplane, the IMC will give you extra training and skills which in our cloudy climate could save your life and the lives of your passengers.

BUT... make sure you do it with a good school and don't accept a "sunshine rating". I was speaking to someone a few weeks ago who did an entire IMC course without an ADF in the trainer or any NDB tracking or holding practice.
Also I have heard of schools passing pupils without any ILS work, as this must be one of the most common landing aids I am amazed.

A good idea would be to find a school that offers the last 5 hours on a complex aircraft so that you learn about wobbly props and retracts at the same time reducing your total eventual expenditure.
Also this will make you a sharper and quicker instrument pilot owing to the faster decision speed required compared with a slow old C.150

When you have got a good rating you must practice to keep on top of the game, on some days I just go out and practice VOR let downs and various holds... sounds sad but I find it more challenging than aimlessly bimbling around.

Go for it is what I say.

B

Therer's absolutely no reason why you should have to do ILS approaches for an IMC rating. If you're A/C is not fitted with a glideslope, you can still do localiser approaches and pass your IMC and make use of it in a many real situations.

"Nike"

What about NDB work?
Perhaps the problem is that the rating is too open to interpetation and various training organisations can offer differing standards.
I believe that it is a good rating as long as the training is carried out to the right competence level.

B

My personal experience on talking to people about this is that it certainly won't do you any harm, IF you respect the reasons for having it.

Done under the supervision of the right school for you, not only will it equip you with the right skills to get out of trouble if you find yourself in it, it can also prove to me an excellent boost to both basic airmanship, radio use and it can enhance your basic flying skill by sticking more rigidly to times, headings, heights and such All this equates to giving your more experience as a pilot (if you are not that experienced), and also adding to making you a safer pilot with the skills to avoid and get out of the *****! :)

I personally think doing an IMC would be great fun and intend to do one as soon as I can, however, I think I might be getting one free! ;) :) ;).

Good luck and enjoy it,
Rusty

[This message has been edited by Rusty Cessna (edited 26 April 2001).]

Go for it...great fun..useful skills that will improve you discipline and confidence. Find a good school and a good instructor at a good Airport (ie one with ATC, where they're happy to accept tiddlers bumbling down the approach). Do as much as you can as regularly as you can during the training and more importantly AFTER! It's no use unless you keep in regular practice..altough I found messing about on my PC Flight Sim very useful for practicing instrument scans

Puffin,

Just passed my IMC 2 weeks ago, so perhaps I can add to the various contributions:

1. I did a LOT of ILS's, radar vectored and
procedural. If you can fly reasonably
accurately on instruments, being radar
vectored around the sky to the localiser
is fairly easy, procedural is more of a
challenge (and I had to do this in my
test, as that was what was available on
the day!).

2. I also had SRA, Loc/DME and PAR
approaches signed off (the PAR was
actually good fun, and I got a great
sense of satisfaction from hearing the
controller say "on the glidepath, on the
centreline" several times as I got near
to my DH at Benson).

3. Holds are not strictly required in the
test, but the opinion of my instructor and
examiner was that you should do them, as
the Air Trafficker at your local Class D
Airport will expect you to be able to do
one if you ask for an Instument Approach.

4. As far as I know (or was told), VOR and
NDB tracking is part of the test, or it
was for me.

From some of the comments here, I am thinking that I may have done more than the basic required to get the rating, but I'm
actually glad I have (although my bank
balance isn't).

Hope it helps (by the way, I have about 230hrs, fly PA28's, and did my course/test at
Wycombe Air Centre).

Cheers.

[This message has been edited by Wycombe (edited 26 April 2001).]

Do it. Its easily the best VALUE rating going. The IR is just more of the same to a slightly higher tolerance and with more levers and buttons involved.

You can get an IMC for £1500 in the UK in the right place...

Just don't fly into a mountain 10 days after the course.

WWW

ps or - indeed - ever.

Well I am currently undertaking my IMC at Denham. I will say that they are pretty expensive but I have been very pleased with the standard of teaching and aircrafts.

I have covered everything to date in alot of detail with plenty of holding patterns, NDB work (tracking and approaches), VOR tracking etc etc. However I have yet to reach the ILS which is the next task. (cant wait :) )

Even though I havent finished (still 9 hours to go) I would recommend it to anyone, I can already tell the difference in my accuracy and skill as a pilot. I think that every PPL should certainly undertake further instrument training as it is a fantastic back up just in case of instrument failure, bad weather etc etc

Good luck

rocky

Puffin Killer,

Go for it...

During my CAA PPL training, I never received any serious training for using the various radio nav aids. It simply wasn't part of the syllabus. (I believe there's a little in the current JAR PPL?) My IMC rating changed my mental picture of navigating for ever. It'll do the same for you, I'm sure. VOR and NDB navigation is just as useful on a sunny day as on a rainy one.

Secondly, many IMC holders would agree that just the opportunity to fly VFR 'on top' is enough to justify doing the rating. It's a beautiful world up there, isn't it folks?

TW

TW

Yes, current JAR syllabus does include an hour or two of nav aids. Basic VOR & NDB stuff. I'm just waiting for a good day to do my XCQ, then a few revision flights and then the GFT.

My next task is to get a few hours P1 before starting my IMC. From what everyone says here, it seems to be a no-brainer.

If you want to fly you need a night rating (discussed previously) and an IMC rating.

Notice need.

I bet the reason more people never fly after their PPL than do, is probably down to the fact that nobody explained these simple facts to them.

Also let me say, the IMC rating is not a get-you-out-of-trouble rating. That would be a GYOOT Rating. It allows you to plan an entire journey IFR as long as you weren't planning to finish up at Heathrow. But you weren't so that doesn't matter.

You need an IMC rating because Great Britain is an IMC country. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Why other similar peoples do not have IMCs I don't know. Maybe we are simply superior. ;) ;)

Many thanks for the positive comments, everyone has confirmed my own opinion of the usefulness of the IMC rating. So far out of everyone I have spoken too only one felt that it wasn't worth it.

I will use the summer (if we get one!) to up the hours and experience and start the IMC around October time.

Happy flying :)

PK

Invaluable lifesaver. Definately do it. Don't think it will be a breeze, I found it incredibly hard but very rewarding.

I've used mine lots mainly when flying over the sea with no horizon. It is often impossible to tell which way is up. On a couple of occasions when flying with other experienced pilots the A/c has managed to roll 60degrees with neither of us noticing. Its odd to see a ship at 2oclock high. In these conditions you have to fly on instruments in CAVOK to avoid doing a Kennedy.

All of the channel island clubs are recommending IMC before any long overwater flights are attempted.

Have fun

The IMC was the hardest thing i have ever done in aviation as it was all so different from eny thing i had done befor and because it let me fly in imc it was good practice for the IR test.

Just two bits of advice , do the IMC rating in as short a time as you can and when you have it KEEP IN PRACTICE.

Good luck !

Keef.
A little late but just hooked onto this thread and wish to take you to task.

<CAA IMC Rating Examiners will sign off anybody, so the rating is meaningless.>

Don't think so, old chap!
I,for one,would never allow a candidate through if, particularly, he couldn't demonstrate a well-flown, well thought out precision approach.
I would also wish to see proof that most of the other types of approach had been signed off in the logbook too.
This is because the IMC Rating is designed as a "safety net"; a means of getting down if you have run,unintentionally,into a little more than you expected.
After all, what's the point of letting a guy/gal loose, with misplaced confidence, when we are the ones who would have to live with it in the event of a future accident.
Give us a bit of credit.

Fly Navy.(then you'll know what weather is!)

Good luck, Sleeve.

Agree totally - *I* don't say the examiners will sign anyone off. Far from it! But I've had that said to me as a reason why the IMC rating is *only* a get you out of trouble rating.

I take mine seriously, and use it in anger to fly IFR in IMC, which is why I did the IMC to start with.

I'd like an IR, but haven't the patience at my time of life to do all that academic study. If it just meant being able to fly the aircraft to the standards, that'd be fine.

Well said Rusty. Yer mum would be proud of you!!
Go for it, but USE it. Any excuse for me. A memorable flight was popping up through the overcast one Christmas eve(courtesy of Benson radar -thanx chaps) into blue skies VMC on top. Kept me high for at least a week!!!!!

I used to teach the IMC a good few years ago, its a very useful rating to have.

I had a student who a few months after passing his IMC got 'caught out' in IMC with a fast moving front (he should have checked the WX properly, but thats another story!).

He got Luton to give him vectors for an ILS, they knew he couldn't except an IFR clearance in class A but but were happy to get him on the ground knowing he could fly an ILS they monitored like an SRA.

I think the rating gives the average PPL confidence on instruments and spatial awarenes. As already said, the sylabus for approaches segement of the IMC is very wide. Make sure your instructor at least does one of every tipe, ie. NDB/VOR/ILS/SRA/PAR.

NOTE : About 8 years ago the CAA would convert a FAA IR for an IMC. It will cost you less to go on holiday to the USA and complete an IR (40hrs less the 5 you instruments for the PPL and I think 10 can be 'mutual' hours with a friend under the hood, so 25 hours to pay for).
The US will except IR training into the major airports mixed in with the big guys, real good fun !

Do it, it's worth it. Starting in October is good. I did mine in deepest West Wales in winter time. Flying in real (read bumpy) IFR conditions made using foggles a breeze later. Mine has since lapsed as my current chariot is a PFA machine and we all know the wings fall off them when you bump into a cloud. As was mentioned earlier, climbing through a thin layer to find an evening sun on top is wonderful.

When I sent my IMC application off to Gatwick (6 weeks and £63...£21 per letter..bargain), they very kindly added IMC to my ratings page and sent me back a signed and stamped

"Instrument Rating - Certificate of Test"

Is this is because:-
a) They cocked it up?
b) The Certificate for IMC and IR are the same?
c) I was SO good on test that they exempted me from future IR training?
d) There was a 'buy one, get one free' special offer on that has saved me about £10K?

Discuss

I'm a Brit who happens to live and work in the US and already have an FAA PPL. I'm just about to start the FAA Instrument Rating, for many of the reasons given above, and plan to be "mixing it with the big boys" under IFR over the next couple of years. I'm a little confused about how that experience will translate when I return to the old country (UK!).

So for anyone with experience to judge, how exactly does the FAA IR differ from the CAA IMC and the full JAA IR? Is the IMC a fair equivalent, or is it just a case of the "not invented here" syndrome? Does a CAA IMC give you any IFR priviledges in the USA?