Fuji

I agree with you about the attitude of the gliding community.

As a non resident of the UK and therefore with no axe to grind as I don't use the airspace, reading this thread makes me think find parapet, raise head, apply large 'X' in middle of forehead and await developments.

You don't need Mode S - not relevant to any gliding context. Mode C is all you need and they are cheap enough on US Ebay. DIY installation is trivial, and so it removal when needed.

If I was gliding, that's what I would do. It makes me visible to many more planes, directly and via ATC radar services.

True but I am talking about an unofficial install.

Here is one of many shops doing the batteries. You need a 3S or 4S variant.

In 10 years' time, possibly. But IMHO there will never be a "removable" ADS-B product, due to certification issues that get stuck to anything that transmits on these frequency bands. And it is highly likely that ADS-B will be implemented using Mode S transponders, using the 1090ES feature (a kind of data back-channel).

When I was in Friedrichshafen in April, I asked the Flarm guys how many they had sold so far. Approx 13,000 in Europe. Mostly to glider owners. Some to aeroplane owners - they thought about 10-15% I recall. There are approximately 22,000 gliders (aircraft, not people) in Europe, both EASA controlled in terms of airworthiness and non-EASA, i.e. Annex II. Data from European Gliding Union survey of member countries, which I was involved with. That means approximately 50% of gliders in the whole of Europe now have Flarm, if the numbers are reasonably correct. In Germany, with about 8,000 gliders, I am led to believe it is a high %, and also in France particularly in the Alps. Flarm is about 5 years old as a product on the market.
In the UK the reason for low numbers with Flarm so far is that until last October, we had not got clearance for use of the relevant radio spectrum. Until that was resolved - the BGA's safety case won the argument quickly and the use of the spectrum is licence-free - UK glider owners were inevitably putting off the purchase of what they saw, for the main part, as a sensible option. I suspect the take-up rate this year will increase considerably. And it doesn't require an EASA mod approval.

That doesn't help anyone! A new Mode A/C transponder installation on ANY aircraft that wants to enter airspace that requires transponder carriage is against the requirements of the UK ANO. For new installations, it MUST be Mode S. You can only operate Mode A/C if it is already fitted (until 2012), or if you never enter transponder mandatory airspace. Later this year the general UK glider exemptions are likely to be revoked, meaning all aircraft will be treated the same, powered or not. There's a reason Mode C transponders are cheap on Ebay, because very few operators can fit and use them now (legally!).

Mode S is absolutely critical in the context of gliders as Mode S is the only way to track a gaggle of them in close proximity. A group of Mode A/C equipped gliders will lead to garbled replies and false targets presented to ATC.

I understand the issues related to length of flight and battery support for transponders, I sat in enough meetings with UK CAA, transponder manufacturers and flying representative groups looking at alternatives to suit the gliding and microlight fraternities (lightweight Mode S transponder) but unfortunately it hasn't got anywhere yet

This is a free forum for people to post what they want, but IMHO it would be wise to ignore advice to perform illegal installs, it defeats the whole point of the transponder regulation in the ANO.

RS

Batteries:
4S I suspect is too high a voltage at 14.8v. Not sure if the 3S would work the radio in particular as it gives the voltage as 11.1.

I also need one that fits the glider - no point in having one that is going to break lose. So far as I can see that make at least don't do one - the Yuasa . Since they are mounted behind my head (as they are in lots of gliders) they *must* be secure. The most common size in gliders (judging by our battery room) is the NP7-12 - 151mm x 65mm x 97.5mm - larger in one way and smaller in another than the ones in your URL. (Height isn't the key dimension in mine, width and depth are)

Unofficial installation:
Go read the chap who has given chapter and verse on it, just after your own post. You want to prove that we can carry a transponder that you will be able to detect, but driving a coach and horses through the regulations isn't a very bright thing to suggest IMHO, however stupid the regulations seem to be.

Transponder:
Maybe I struck unlucky, the only one there today is a CESSNA ARC RT-459A (Item no. 150105633270) and sorry but there is absolutely no way that could be fitted in my panel, even if it is completely reworked. The panel is about the width of a normal keyboard and half as high again, and is full. (ASI, altimeter, mechanical vario, electric vario, radio, T&S)

I *think* there is room on top of the coaming for Flarm & PCAS next door to each other (and I'll be measuring it next time I'm at the club). At least mine has a flat top to the coaming, a lot of gliders have a curved top.

Flarm and PCAS will not be illegal in any way, you will be able to detect me (so long as you can bear to part with £500 for Flarm and I have mine turned on), I will be able to detect you (so long as you are transponding).

Radarspod

The LAA won a concession to allow mode c transponders to be fitted to permit aircraft till at least 2012, I am not sure if that was extended beyond permit aircraft or not as I am no longer directly involved.

Rod1

The LAA govern Annex 2 aircraft, which operate under an entirely different system. Gliders (except for a few vintage ones) have to comply with full EASA airworthiness certification. Since the majority of gliders were entered onto the EASA system with a wide range of different instrument and electrical fits, a generic mod to cover a number of gliders of the same type is not possible. I have had a long discussion with TRIG on exactly this subject. The regulatory obtacles are vastly greater than GA fitting 'portable' FLARM.

As for Lithium batteries, their fire hazard record is well documented, and fitting one in an EASA certified glider would be seriously illegal.

OMG! :eek: (love that 'eek' smiley!)

Just what you want in a composite aircraft (not) - a fire just behind your head. Fire isn't good for parachutes either.

Sorry fitter wasn't aware of these fire issues, even if it only happens under charge that would be seriously bad news since the battery room is at the end of the hanger - or in my house. Not sure how impressed my insurer would be...

Possibly this or this might discourage you from considering a Lithium battery. Other safer battery technologies are believed to be in development, but currently lead-acid gel cells are the only ones approved for use in EASA gliders.

So, what does one do about the "CAA approved" ICOM radios which use NICD or NIMH battery packs, which can deliver hundreds of amps on a short circuit and cause a very nice fire while at it? All high energy batteries are a hazard, if you puncture them or short-circuit them. That's life. Try shorting a decent size lead acid battery; the battery will probably not catch fire but the wire will do something pretty spectacular. If you want safety, power everything from a PP3 :)

ICOM NiMH and NiCd batteries have an internal fuse.

Lithium is an entirely different hazard. Used in the oil industry (because they will work up to 180C) they are sealed in their own explosion proof housing. I have seen what they can do, and it is nasty; I am not having one anywhere in an aircraft of mine.

As I said, battery technology is advancing and other, safer, technologies are coming.

Or cook them on a plancha, per the You Tube video.

Worth mentioning that several GPS units are sold with integral lithium batteries fitted, so those who would "never use them" might already be doing so....

Garmin use very low capacity LiPo batteries for memory backup. A 10AH one (or similar capacity useful for powering Transponders etc) is a very different animal.

Aren't Lithium batteries in almost every mobile phone these days?

Oh dear...Now we have the Lithium excuse !!

My mobile has a Lithium battery and I take in my aeroplane, in commercial aeroplanes, and in helicopters. Actually now I think about it, so does my laptop...and my camera come to think of it....

I don't make the rules - the CAA used to, but fortunately the BGA had a realistic attitude towards airworthiness, and an extremely high safety record.

Now EASA make the rules, and whatever we may think of them they are the law. Changes to an aircraft that do not comply with their rules invalidate the insurance, and no doubt you would then castigate gliders for flying uninsured...........

I do not have to make any excuses for complying with the rules (however stupid I may consider them to be).

so what about these Li-Ion powerpacks ?
half the weight, three times capacity... when compared with the same size lead-acid battery :ok:

li-ion excuse?!!!
 

englishal, old chap, what are you trying to say? In an airliner there are crew trained and equiped to deal with low capacity Li-ion battery fires and they have enough space to deal with the issue. In my glider I cannot reach the batteries and would not have an ice bucket to immerse the batteries in if I could reach them. Mobile phone, gps etc can be jetisoned if necissary through the DV window.
Are you seriously suggesting that I fit a large capacity Li-ion battery in my sailplane next to a O2 bottle and my parachute to satisfy some ludites desire to provide enough power for a WW2 based relic that should be consigned to the history books? i.e. a transponder
No chance ! EASA have approved only 2 types of battery and I am not in the game of taking random risks like that. ADSB is the way forward and much lower power drain. Even the CAA know that new technologies will overtake the mode s malarky by 2012 or shortly after.

Now back to the point. In class "G" look out of the window and dont expect technology or a controller to keep you safe and if you see a cumulus cloud , go round it rather than through it in case someone else is already in it, then you have a sporting chance of staying safe.
b b

Have you seen the price of those batteries? 512Eu! :eek::eek::eek: