Quite a few. Checking the flights that have been published on the gliding competition ladder from the weekend shows 88 flights in excess of 500kms on 14th alone Many of these will have taken five hours+. Many, many more flights of a similar duration will have taken place but won't have been published (not all glider pilots are competitive). Additionally most club gliders will have been flown pretty solidly from 09:00 to 20:00 with flight durations ranging from a quick 10 minute hop & circuit through to many five hour badge claim flights.

As mentioned elsewhere, the suspicion is that the Dutch pilots have installed non-EASA approved equipment to their gliders. Quite ironic really that they've done non-approved mods to comply with the Dutch requireement to have Mode-S equipment fitted and they're now obliged to turn the equipment off as it's apparently causing problems with Schiphol's Radar when they're flying below CAS.

Too many transponders in too small a spot is too much for ATC software
 

Our glider club in Canada has ongoing airspace discussions with the authorities. They do not want a dozen plus transponder returns from our local gliding area as it will overload their software. Possibly the conflict alert system starts making loud noises.

In such cases, a radio transmission from one glider pilot to ATC, or even a phone call to say that gliding is in progress, would help, rather than hinder them.

Just to add a little recent experience in VMC on Tuesday.

I was flying my glider over central Wales, just south of Welshpool, in the cruise at c. 3800' AMSL, cloudbase c. 4600', heading approx 180. And low and behold I spot an aeroplane at approx 10 o'clock and about 1NM away on a course that will cut across my path, probably about 200' below me. So I think, 'let's see if he sees me' (I am ready to taking avoiding action). I waggle my wings quite markedly several times. I turn a bit left and then right. But the aeroplane (Cessna 180 or similar) just keeps ploughing on without change of course, speed or height. Of course he flies underneath my level (by approx 150') about 1/4 mile ahead (I slowed up by c. 20kts to ensure that).

Looking out or head in cockpit looking at all the gizmos?

That compares with last Thursday in the same general area when I heard (you always hear them first) a fast jet. I spot him to the left at about 2 NM and roughly same level I would guess but tracking across the front of me - and he spots me because he turns left in a climbing turn. Waggles his wings to acknowledge my presence. Tornado. I was prepared to drop down below his level if necessary. This confirmed my impression that fast jet RAF pilots do look out a lot, borne out by my experience some years ago of getting a back seat ride in a Hawk trip over Wales. The pilot then, despite being very busy with the task and everything else, was eagle-eyed with his look out. I asked him after the flight what proportion of his time on the flight was head in cockpit. Less than 2% he estimated.

The only wing waggle acknowledgements I have ever received have indeed been from military aircraft.

David, Having flown both SEP and RAF jets in my time (and now mainly helicopters), I would say that the Cessna pilot didn't have as good a chance of seeing you as did the jet pilot. A Cessna pilot's wing is above him and he sits on the left of the cockpit. If you think about the geometry of that, you might understand. The fast jet pilot, on the other hand, has a much better field of view.

It's a strange thing that where two powered side-by-side seating aircraft are concerned (I appreciate that you are flying a glider and therefore have ROW irrespective) the one with the other on it's right must give way, whilst the one with the other on its left must hold a steady course.

Therefore, the one who is least likely to see the other aircraft must give way. The one who is more likely to have seen the other one must initially allow the "blind" pilot to take the avoidance on him, meanwhile thinking: "Well has he seen me or not?"

From my own routine daily encounters with such aircraft, probably not! :(

Shy Torque,
As an ex Beagle Terrier owner I know what you mean about restricted visibility with a high wing aircraft (and the clutter of overhead metal bars in the case of Terrier!) but the position of the Cessna on Tuesday relative to me was such that I reckon he should have seen me before I was in his 2 o'clock or so. There was at least 20 secs whilst I should have been visible to him, particularly as I tried to attract his attention by manoevering

The only point I am making is that all pilots, especially in Class G VFR, should spend as much time as possible looking out and scanning. None of us is perfect but generally us glider pilots seem to be more conscious of the need, IMHO.

As a glider pilot (primarily) I don't personally rely on the ROW rule, on the simple premise that at the pearly gates it's no good saying 'I had the ROW'.

Can't agree more. I experience pilots who fail to comply with the rules of the air in a similar situation almost every working (flying) day.

As a helicopter pilot I sit on the right, so can see aircraft on my right a little easier - apart from the six inch wide door pillar about eighteen inches from my nose, partially obscuring my field of view. I suffer from neck-ache.

more than 5 hours
 

Oone problem that gliding suffers with is that people who do not know or understand what we do have opinions on how, when and where we should fly.

The answer to the 5 hour question?
last sunday there were at least 100 flight recorded of over 5 hours, but probably 300 plus!!!

Looking in my own log book few flight are less than 5 and many are in the 8 to 10hr+ bracket. I think a guy in Scotland did around 14 hrs in one fligh last year, now that is not the norm so not quoted here, He is hoping for a longer flight in the near future.

5 hrs is not an exception Fuji Abound, I would say more like an average for soaring pilots

Fuji, please provide a URL to the thread you mention about the Dutch pilots.

FLYER Forums • View topic - Glider Thread [Flyin"Dutch"]

Sorry guys, but my view of this thread and issue is that gliders in the UK are prepared to do very little about this topic.

It maybe nothing can be done. It maybe transponders are not the answer.

The threads have been useful in helping to ensure GA have a better understanding of gliding, albeit it would seem it is GA that is expected to take all the precautions to avoid gliders.

The trials by gliders using PCAS are on the other hand very useful albeit I wonder whether many gliders will actually invest in PCAS.

Yesterday I did two 10 minute diversions because AT told me numerous primary contacts were ahead. Did it bother me giving them a wide berth - no. Would there have been a good chance of blundering into another glider a distance from the main group had I not been receiving a traffic service - yes. Did I hear any transmissions from the gliders whilst routing around - no.

Is there any enforcement of certification issues on gliders? The impression I've always had, from speaking to owners on occassions, is that - like homebuilts - more or less anything goes. Obviously the installation would be "removable" which is how one does this kind of thing generally. Also, modern lithium batteries (used in model aircraft) are a fraction of the size and weight of the old lead-acid ones.

See and avoid
 

Interesting to read David Robert's encounters with a ?Cessna and a Tornado.

Too right the Cessnas (and my Supercub) have blind spots. So does a Warrior; in the USA I was traveling at the correct altitude for my direction (slightly to the right of north) and only just in time when his airplane blossomed from behind my doorpost, saw the opposition. He never saw me, it would have spoiled his entire day.

In the glider one has (except in a K-7) superb visibility, except below under the nose, and when the Cessna is catching you up from behind. Also in the glider one spends a lot of time going around in circles.

Also our training (and survival instinct) insists on lookout.

As far as right of way, forget it. We assume the spam can driver has got his head inside. If only the military pilots ethic could be transmitted to the GA fraternity. . . . .

Dutch gliding with transponders
 

Cats, I just found the refernece to Dutch gliding with transponders - it is on "Flyer Forum", the "Glider Thread". See your pm's.

Chris N.

Ah well, a bit like this thread then .. .. .. :D

Mary

this will never happen.

RAF pilots are the cream of the cream, selected by rejecting maybe 99% of applicants and they catch them very young. And it is a very rigorous high time on type regime. Tight preflight briefing. Any time not spent looking out is spent watching their wafer-thin fuel reserves ;) And most of their flying is on well rehearsed routes. Radar service provided on private UHF frequencies, by units which at the same time appear closed when GA calls them up.

GA will never be like this. Go to your local GA airfield and look at the demographics. Average age is about 50, average hours maybe 20/year, flying knackered wreckage with windows scratched by decades of cleaning with paper tissues and monkey-fisted maintenance.

Fuji is right about this thread going around in circles but pilots who use technology correctly do spend practically all their time looking outside - precisely because they have nothing to do. The route is loaded into the GPS, and you fly VNAV according to the plog.

Fuji:
And I wonder how many GA will invest in Flarm? to get the best benefits both fleets have to be transmitting and both receiving.

We know that not all GA transponds, so fitting a PCAS wouldn't let me find them, and since I don't transpond they will be in blissful ignorance of me until they fit a Flarm (once mine is borught and fitted, which will be next month).

I would also remind you that there have been two middairs this year, one in S. Wales and the one last Sunday. The first one didn't involve gliders - it involved two modern, well-equipped planes flown by experiences pilots each of which must have known the other was in the air. I have no idea what either of the AAIB reports will say (or any internal RAF report), but both were in VMC. Does all GA with a transponder transpond at all times? If not, why not?

You have been told several times over that (leaving practical issues aside) the only way most gliders can fit a transponder is by driving a coach and horses through the EASA regulations which is what we suspect the Dutch pilots have done. Now most of us are distinctly unimpressed with having had to EASA-transition our gliders, but now they are EASA controlled do you recommend we ignore the rules?

IO450: Yes, a qualified BGA & EASA approved inspector looks at the glider every year and should spot non-EASA installations / modifications. Since we have only just come under that umbrella I don't know what would happen if they spotted a non-compliant installation / modification. Yes, we take everything out we can first - parachutes, pee bags, charts, camelbacks, food crumbs, flight loggers, Flarm, O2 bottles - and as can easily be removed is not an issue for EASA, PCAS could probably go in just about any glider, ModeS not.

Modern lithium batteries - URL please, I'm not sure what they are, what sizes they come in and so on. But remember the only kind of transponder that EASA would do a scheme for now would be Mode-S which uses a lot more power than Mode-C.

Someone at my club said that in 10 years or so ADS-B will be side-stepping the issue. Can't comment except to say that he is very well connected in both the gliding world and the CAT world and is nobodies fool.

I'd buy FLARM if all gliders fit it. I already have a transponder (which technically we do not NEED to have), and PCAS interfaced to my 496 (and it shows up LOTS of traffic). We are alos painted dark blue and red. However I suspect that maybe 25% of gliders have FLARM, if we're lucky? You yourself are yet to fit FLARM which has been around years. Someone publish some useful stats on how many UK gliders have FLARM fitted and if it is significantly over 50% I'll order a box tomorrow.

FTR, I reckon that probably 90% of US gliders have Transponders - maybe they don't always turn them on, but I bet they have them. How come they CAN DO yet in typical British fashion, we CAN'T DO ?

Trig are running a series of ads in the GA mags. It amazed me just how small the head is - about the size of a matchbox. Doubtless there are some gliders who dont even have space on their panel for a matchbox but presumably many do.

As to the approval we did several mods on an aircraft I owned. We worked with the other operators of the same type (less than 10) and shared the cost. I dont know how many types of gliders there are but if the glider fraternity were willing I suspect this could be done legally and without the cost being out of hand. Who knows a firm like Trig might even help - it is in their interest to do so.

As to the power consumption, and the comments about 100 hour corss country flights it is all irrelevant - I dont think anyone is suggesting you should transpond all the time but there are clearly times it would be helpful - in cloud, in and out of cloud etc. If the flight is less than three or four hours of which I suspect many are then leave it turned on.
ADS-B is the answer, but not for now. Realistically GA is not going to invest in FLARM, so transponders are the only game in town that are used by nearly everyone else.

In short your arguments are unconvincing. They remind me of politicians trying to shed the responsibility every else, and finding every reason under the sun for not doing what is right.

20 hours flights - great, so turn on the transponder when you are in and out of cloud, or in cloud, switch it off some of the time to conserve power. Investgate Nicads as IO540 suggest,

No panel space - OK so some panels dont have room for a matchbox, but I bet the majority to,

EASA - well work with EASA, band together so that people with the same type of glider get a major mod approval for the type etc.

I know you have convinced yourself it is them and us - but it really isnt. It just so happens powered GA is on the side of the fence where the majority of things that fly have decided (rightly or wrongly) transponders are the only game in town for the time being. Do you think I wanted to pay out £7K for a mode S transponder to be fitted in their early days.

You lot really need to sort yourselves out and work together and lobby together to make transponders happen otherwise you will make yourself very unpopular with those that matter - and I am not one of them! However, I do know for sure EASA are on your case, so do something about it now or you may not like the outcome because I dont want to see gliders being banned from cloud flying, I just want it to be safe for everyone who might be in the same cloud at the same time! :)

Some of us in GA are ex-military pilots, especially so in the helicopter world.

Fuji

I agree with you about the attitude of the gliding community.

As a non resident of the UK and therefore with no axe to grind as I don't use the airspace, reading this thread makes me think find parapet, raise head, apply large 'X' in middle of forehead and await developments.

You don't need Mode S - not relevant to any gliding context. Mode C is all you need and they are cheap enough on US Ebay. DIY installation is trivial, and so it removal when needed.

If I was gliding, that's what I would do. It makes me visible to many more planes, directly and via ATC radar services.

True but I am talking about an unofficial install.

Here is one of many shops doing the batteries. You need a 3S or 4S variant.

In 10 years' time, possibly. But IMHO there will never be a "removable" ADS-B product, due to certification issues that get stuck to anything that transmits on these frequency bands. And it is highly likely that ADS-B will be implemented using Mode S transponders, using the 1090ES feature (a kind of data back-channel).

When I was in Friedrichshafen in April, I asked the Flarm guys how many they had sold so far. Approx 13,000 in Europe. Mostly to glider owners. Some to aeroplane owners - they thought about 10-15% I recall. There are approximately 22,000 gliders (aircraft, not people) in Europe, both EASA controlled in terms of airworthiness and non-EASA, i.e. Annex II. Data from European Gliding Union survey of member countries, which I was involved with. That means approximately 50% of gliders in the whole of Europe now have Flarm, if the numbers are reasonably correct. In Germany, with about 8,000 gliders, I am led to believe it is a high %, and also in France particularly in the Alps. Flarm is about 5 years old as a product on the market.
In the UK the reason for low numbers with Flarm so far is that until last October, we had not got clearance for use of the relevant radio spectrum. Until that was resolved - the BGA's safety case won the argument quickly and the use of the spectrum is licence-free - UK glider owners were inevitably putting off the purchase of what they saw, for the main part, as a sensible option. I suspect the take-up rate this year will increase considerably. And it doesn't require an EASA mod approval.

That doesn't help anyone! A new Mode A/C transponder installation on ANY aircraft that wants to enter airspace that requires transponder carriage is against the requirements of the UK ANO. For new installations, it MUST be Mode S. You can only operate Mode A/C if it is already fitted (until 2012), or if you never enter transponder mandatory airspace. Later this year the general UK glider exemptions are likely to be revoked, meaning all aircraft will be treated the same, powered or not. There's a reason Mode C transponders are cheap on Ebay, because very few operators can fit and use them now (legally!).

Mode S is absolutely critical in the context of gliders as Mode S is the only way to track a gaggle of them in close proximity. A group of Mode A/C equipped gliders will lead to garbled replies and false targets presented to ATC.

I understand the issues related to length of flight and battery support for transponders, I sat in enough meetings with UK CAA, transponder manufacturers and flying representative groups looking at alternatives to suit the gliding and microlight fraternities (lightweight Mode S transponder) but unfortunately it hasn't got anywhere yet

This is a free forum for people to post what they want, but IMHO it would be wise to ignore advice to perform illegal installs, it defeats the whole point of the transponder regulation in the ANO.

RS

Batteries:
4S I suspect is too high a voltage at 14.8v. Not sure if the 3S would work the radio in particular as it gives the voltage as 11.1.

I also need one that fits the glider - no point in having one that is going to break lose. So far as I can see that make at least don't do one - the Yuasa . Since they are mounted behind my head (as they are in lots of gliders) they *must* be secure. The most common size in gliders (judging by our battery room) is the NP7-12 - 151mm x 65mm x 97.5mm - larger in one way and smaller in another than the ones in your URL. (Height isn't the key dimension in mine, width and depth are)

Unofficial installation:
Go read the chap who has given chapter and verse on it, just after your own post. You want to prove that we can carry a transponder that you will be able to detect, but driving a coach and horses through the regulations isn't a very bright thing to suggest IMHO, however stupid the regulations seem to be.

Transponder:
Maybe I struck unlucky, the only one there today is a CESSNA ARC RT-459A (Item no. 150105633270) and sorry but there is absolutely no way that could be fitted in my panel, even if it is completely reworked. The panel is about the width of a normal keyboard and half as high again, and is full. (ASI, altimeter, mechanical vario, electric vario, radio, T&S)

I *think* there is room on top of the coaming for Flarm & PCAS next door to each other (and I'll be measuring it next time I'm at the club). At least mine has a flat top to the coaming, a lot of gliders have a curved top.

Flarm and PCAS will not be illegal in any way, you will be able to detect me (so long as you can bear to part with £500 for Flarm and I have mine turned on), I will be able to detect you (so long as you are transponding).

Radarspod

The LAA won a concession to allow mode c transponders to be fitted to permit aircraft till at least 2012, I am not sure if that was extended beyond permit aircraft or not as I am no longer directly involved.

Rod1

The LAA govern Annex 2 aircraft, which operate under an entirely different system. Gliders (except for a few vintage ones) have to comply with full EASA airworthiness certification. Since the majority of gliders were entered onto the EASA system with a wide range of different instrument and electrical fits, a generic mod to cover a number of gliders of the same type is not possible. I have had a long discussion with TRIG on exactly this subject. The regulatory obtacles are vastly greater than GA fitting 'portable' FLARM.

As for Lithium batteries, their fire hazard record is well documented, and fitting one in an EASA certified glider would be seriously illegal.

OMG! :eek: (love that 'eek' smiley!)

Just what you want in a composite aircraft (not) - a fire just behind your head. Fire isn't good for parachutes either.

Sorry fitter wasn't aware of these fire issues, even if it only happens under charge that would be seriously bad news since the battery room is at the end of the hanger - or in my house. Not sure how impressed my insurer would be...

Possibly this or this might discourage you from considering a Lithium battery. Other safer battery technologies are believed to be in development, but currently lead-acid gel cells are the only ones approved for use in EASA gliders.

So, what does one do about the "CAA approved" ICOM radios which use NICD or NIMH battery packs, which can deliver hundreds of amps on a short circuit and cause a very nice fire while at it? All high energy batteries are a hazard, if you puncture them or short-circuit them. That's life. Try shorting a decent size lead acid battery; the battery will probably not catch fire but the wire will do something pretty spectacular. If you want safety, power everything from a PP3 :)

ICOM NiMH and NiCd batteries have an internal fuse.

Lithium is an entirely different hazard. Used in the oil industry (because they will work up to 180C) they are sealed in their own explosion proof housing. I have seen what they can do, and it is nasty; I am not having one anywhere in an aircraft of mine.

As I said, battery technology is advancing and other, safer, technologies are coming.

Or cook them on a plancha, per the You Tube video.

Worth mentioning that several GPS units are sold with integral lithium batteries fitted, so those who would "never use them" might already be doing so....

Garmin use very low capacity LiPo batteries for memory backup. A 10AH one (or similar capacity useful for powering Transponders etc) is a very different animal.

Aren't Lithium batteries in almost every mobile phone these days?

Oh dear...Now we have the Lithium excuse !!

My mobile has a Lithium battery and I take in my aeroplane, in commercial aeroplanes, and in helicopters. Actually now I think about it, so does my laptop...and my camera come to think of it....

I don't make the rules - the CAA used to, but fortunately the BGA had a realistic attitude towards airworthiness, and an extremely high safety record.

Now EASA make the rules, and whatever we may think of them they are the law. Changes to an aircraft that do not comply with their rules invalidate the insurance, and no doubt you would then castigate gliders for flying uninsured...........

I do not have to make any excuses for complying with the rules (however stupid I may consider them to be).

so what about these Li-Ion powerpacks ?
half the weight, three times capacity... when compared with the same size lead-acid battery :ok:

li-ion excuse?!!!
 

englishal, old chap, what are you trying to say? In an airliner there are crew trained and equiped to deal with low capacity Li-ion battery fires and they have enough space to deal with the issue. In my glider I cannot reach the batteries and would not have an ice bucket to immerse the batteries in if I could reach them. Mobile phone, gps etc can be jetisoned if necissary through the DV window.
Are you seriously suggesting that I fit a large capacity Li-ion battery in my sailplane next to a O2 bottle and my parachute to satisfy some ludites desire to provide enough power for a WW2 based relic that should be consigned to the history books? i.e. a transponder
No chance ! EASA have approved only 2 types of battery and I am not in the game of taking random risks like that. ADSB is the way forward and much lower power drain. Even the CAA know that new technologies will overtake the mode s malarky by 2012 or shortly after.

Now back to the point. In class "G" look out of the window and dont expect technology or a controller to keep you safe and if you see a cumulus cloud , go round it rather than through it in case someone else is already in it, then you have a sporting chance of staying safe.
b b

Have you seen the price of those batteries? 512Eu! :eek::eek::eek: