PPRuNe Forums - Why can't permit aircraft do night

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Can anything be done? Is anything being done?

Does anyone know if a US homebuilt on the N-register can be operated IFR in Europe?

The new CEO of the LAA was very optimistic in the LAA mag that this would move forward so it is on his agenda. If you want to help, join up and volentear, he will be deligted. The new rules in 2010 may help, but we will see.

It is not possible to operate an N-Reg permit aircraft for more than 30 days a year in the UK.

Rod1

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don't know if you are UK based or not. In the UK the rules around IFR in class G and UK PPL privileges are unique in the world (to my knowledge) and this helps the IFR/VFR/VMC/IMC what can be logged debate fill pages of forum archives.

For a UK PPL in class G there is almost no operational difference between being IFR or VFR and there are no boxes to tick beyond quadrantal flight levels, if above the TA (and an obscure minimum height over mountains issue).

Filing a class G flight plan gets an equally good ignoring if it is V or I - And I believe a PPL can perfectly legitimately choose either (for Class G flight).

Obviously trying to count good weather class G 'IFR' flying toward your ATPL isn't likely to work.

All of this is irrelevant to the core question of IFR and Night in Permit aircraft.

Irrelevant to the core question of IFR and night in permit acft? Not really, whatever we may think about the capabilities of permit acft the acft itself has to be certificated. And so does the pilot if he wants to log IFR or night time.

There may be no operational difference between flying IFR or VFR in class G, but as I said before, and echoed by I0540 why would you therefore feel the need to say you are IFR?? You certainly can't log the time as IFR (as you agree).

Permit acft are becoming more and more sophisticated in terms of construction and performance. Equally true for avionics systems and their performance. But bjornhall provides a model answer regarding the current process for acft certification as to why things are the way they are.

Oh dear

Surely you cannot log 'instrument time' when flying in VMC conditions on an IFR flight plan. I have always understood that it should be by sole reference to the Flight Instruments.

The problem at flying at night is that you just cannot see when you are about to enter into a cloud and not do you have much idea as to the size or severity of the cloud.

I've crossed active frontal systems in both permit and certified aircraft on both sides of the Atlantic (so legally if not completely sensibly).

In terms of the former - when the hail is hammering down on the windscreen it does rather make you hope the bloke who araldited the airfix kit together in his garage didn't skimp on the adhesive.

Don't get me wrong - I love LAA/EAA types - right on the cutting edge etc... only problem is that in certain atmospheric conditions you can end up being the test pilot...

SB

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Surely you cannot log 'instrument time' when flying in VMC conditions on an IFR flight plan.

Airline pilots do this all the time. Not much weather to worry about at FL300+, normally. But they still file, fly and log IFR.

Look at your logbook. The column says "IFR" not "IMC".

But I agree it's the UK which sort of dilutes the difference between VFR and IFR by allowing people to fly according to Instrument Flight Rules, outside controlled airspace, without a flight plan and without an IR, as long as they stay in VMC. At night, you don't even have the choice between VFR and IFR.

There may be logbooks with an "IFR" column but I never had one :)

Can anyone tell me what license/rating IFR time would be useful towards?

The FAA IR requires 40hrs total instrument time and that is instrument time not IFR time.

The JAA IR does not recognise any IFR or instrument experience at all. They just want you to sit with an instructor for 50/55hrs.

The JAA ATPL is an hour building exercise, AFAIK.

My last long trip was about 15hrs, all IFR, and I logged maybe 10 mins instrument time. That is how IFR works. You get the full IR and it allows you to fly VMC on top, in the sunshine.

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Can anyone tell me what license/rating IFR time would be useful towards?

Both JAR-FCL and the proposed EASA-FCL have various requirements for "flight time under IFR" in respect of Instrument Instructor and Examiner qualifications.
brgds
421C

For PPL it doesn't really come into play.

Once commercial there are several regulations and insurance stipulations that require a certain amount of IFR time.

The change to the public transport single pilot IFR rules a few years back stopped a large number of what were low hour air taxi jobs for cpl/ir holders I think you need 500 hours IFR or something like that.

Its a pain actually because these log books don't have a sole instrument flying column. When you apply for your ATPL one of the experience requirements is flight with sole use of instruments. And the only truthful reply for most folk is "I don't have a clue"