post PPL flying
 

Hey - this is kind of a part two to the thread regarding funding PPl training.

I was wondering what people have done to enable them to fly post PPL checkride? I'm struggling to find the funds to get myself up there as much as I'd like.

I'm considering saving for 12 months and heading to the states for double my hours whilst getting an hour in every three months or something. I know this isnt ideal for safety but on a budget its the best I can do.

Whats everyone else done?

Most give up flying, of course, having got the PPL, and not having the money, or not wanting to spend the money, is one factor.

Others switch to cheaper forms of flying (microlights, gliding, and stuff).

Others spend £2k - £3k per year renting a club aircraft once every two or three weeks (cue usual thread full of usual people ranting that "if you can't afford to fly at least twice a day you can't possibly be current enough to be safe so you should give up").

Others with lots of money buy their own aircraft and fly every day.

Gertrude is exaggerating somewhat of course about flying twice a day :)

Without a doubt, the cheapest way to fly regularly is by joining (or putting together) a syndicate.

Outright ownership is the best for total access, avoidance of disagreements over the standard of maintenance, etc, but is obviously the most costly option.

If you can afford to own outright, DO SO, do it early in your aviation "career" (before you have wasted too much money on renting old junk) and you will not regret it for a second.

There is a general observation in aviation that the people who are happy are those who are doing something which is within their financial means. The trend is for people to keep moving up and eventually they end up flying something which they can't afford. The trick is to find a point at which one is happy financially but still gets value out of it.

I'm sure if you typed "cheap flying" or some such in the search engine you'd find lots of advice.

Mine would be to join the LAA (was PFA) and look into group flying or ownership of cheap home built types. Not everybodies cup of tea, but I've managed to keep flying for twenty years for peanuts that way, when really I should have quit due to lack of funds.

SS

After I got my PPL I spent 6 months hiring, and what a total pain in the arse it was. Can't go here, can't go there, can't take it away overnight because it's booked solid the next day, woe betide you if you want to go away for a week and play it by ear...

Was very lucky to meet a couple of other chaps in the same boat and bought a splendid 177. Hourly costs have reduced by at least £40 for a far superior aircraft to those I was hiring, and if I fly between 3 and 4 hours a month it covers the monthly costs when you put the figures back to back. That said I've flown about 120 hours in the last 12 months! The more you fly, the more you save, err, kinda.

If it's motivation that's flagging, joining a group with a good aircraft and good members is the way to go. That said, money is always an rather inconvenient deciding factor, as with everything.

just how much does it cost on average to keep your PPL current by hiring planes and what happens if you dont whats the cost of getting your licence renewed?

I have a mate who has been around aircraft for a long time give me a copy of a spreadsheet that you can input the capital cost of said aircraft, maintenance, fuel useage, finance if any, hangarage, engine allowance, in fact every cost there is to owning an aircraft. At the end it spits out the total cost per hour to fly the aircraft from 5 hours per year through to 1000 hours per year.

What I found is that to beat the cost of hiring an aircraft I would have to do about 300-350 hours per year regardless of aircraft type. The reason being to offset the fixed costs of aicraft ownership (ie those costs that you have regardless of whether you fly 1 or 1000 hours per year).

Therefore unless you can afford to fly for at least 350 hours per year I would recommend against aircraft ownership. However, if you can form a syndicate and get the 350 of hours utilisation to help offset the fixed costs then it does indeed become feasible as the fixed costs are obviously shared between each syndicate member.

Anyway part of the beauty of flying is dreaming of the aircraft type we want and then settling for the aircraft type we can afford. Myself, well in my budget I have a fortnightly allowance that allows me to do an hour or three per month. I have not bought an aircraft yet although I have come very very close three times. But the old adage of the three f's does indeed seem to keep reapplying itself, "If it flies, floats or f&#*s... rent it".:ok:

Cheers
Nards

When we bought ours, we went with the conservative line on the figures. Took the figure we thought would cover unexpected expenses per annum and doubled it. Turned out to be fairly accurate :}

Nards .... that is tosh!

Just as an example, my T31m SLMG cost me £2500 to build (they can be bought for around £3-5k). I do the maintanence, which is very simple stuff that anybody with half a brain cell could manage. I'm lucky in that I have my own strip, but if I didn't, the a/c is deriggable and could be trailered to save hangarage. It would be a pain, but if needs must? My total costs for around 75 hours a year work out at around £20/hr. It doesn't drop much for a lot more hours as fuel is now the main factor. A single seat LAA/PFA type might not appeal to everyone, but the point is that there ARE ways to bring the cost down, and to say that you need to do 350 hours to make ownership worth while is just rubbish! I'm sure others will share their costs for Jodel's, group owned CofA types ect ... and they'll certainly be cheaper than 350 hours of club rental at £100+/hr.

SS

Depending on your current circumstances, why not think about a part time job to pay for more flying? I work a full time shift pattern and then also work part time elsewhere on my days/time off, so that my salary pays for my "life" (car, petrol, accommodation, food, etc), which means all the part time work I do (at just above minimum wage I might add) can go into a seperate bank account for flying, and manage to fly at least once a month.

It's all abouot how bad you want it...

That may be true in some extreme scenarios but these comparisons take in so many assumptions they are meaningless. The figure could be as low as 100hrs/year but even that completely fails to take into account the potentially massive value of

- total access, able to go away on holidays, etc
- maintenance to your standard
- knowing nobody has "bent" it and kept quiet
- able to keep your kit permanently inside
- all kinds of assorted hassles

You need to fly at least 12 hours every two years, of which at least 12 have to be done during the second of those two years. So, average 6hrs/year is about £600/year.

But (if that is all the flying you do) you will likely be a useless pilot on that level of currency. I know of people who manage happily on this though - by flying regularly as passengers and taking the controls.

The other option is to fly every 2 years with an Examiner. Then you just need to pass the test - no need for any other hours. Again, people with the above-mentioned unlogged time tend to take advantage of this option.

Perfect solution on Ebay I've noticed. There's a Clutton Fred on there. It's a single seat, folding wing, VW powered parasol group A aeroplane. £2500 at present for very cheap hours ... On a budget, what more could you ask for? Expect insurance to be about £700, and fuel burn about 12-18 litres /hr of mogas.

SS

PS ... The FRED is nothing to do with me BTW. I 3/4 built one once, but the one on ebay is nowt to do with me.

Nards, completely agree with what you say, I have a similar sort of spreadsheet, designed for the business. Certainly, the cost of keeping an aircraft, ('A' class aircraft, not PfA), doing any less that 150 hours per year is high and there is certainly no profit, (if you are operating for profitable means). Either way, you would effectively be running it at a loss, whether used exclusively for yourself, or via a business.

I also agree with Shortstripper, PfA types of aircraft are a lot cheaper to run and maintain, (and often to purchase), but only appeal to certain people. However, there is still the cost of hangarage, for those who don't have their own facilities, and for those machines that cannot be disassembled and towed away after flight, plus insurance.

CofA aircraft, especially those on public transport as opposed to private, will always be more expensive to run, but are the type that most flying schools, apart from the microlight faction, have to operate at present.

It does seem that either joining, or forming a group/syndicate, is the most effective way of cheaper (and better availability), flying as things stand at the moment.

Hopefully we will soon have the choice, what with the proposed LAPL, etc..

Its all about what you want/need to fly.

As has been said above. Lots of people place the importance of an aircraft that is well maintained, has lots of avionics kit, not been batterd and abused by countless students abusing it, high on their list of priorities. Others want an aircraft with decent range for touring. Others regularly need 4 seats etc etc. I myself have been considering this very question. I originally wanted an aircraft for touring. I now find myself looking at something along the lines of a pioneer 300...http://www.pioneeraviation.co.uk, whilst this aircraft, and others like it, may not suit everybody, if I could get a group going around one of these, the monthlies would be good and the hourly rate would be good aswell. If you want cheap flying I think you need to consider aircraft such as the pioneer. Also, it all rests on what you consider cheap.

I used to find that the cheapest way to fly was to get three friends, fly somewhere interesting and split the costs with them.

Not surprisingly I used to find that if I asked my friends to come flying with me, maybe to another airfield for a cup of tea and pay their share of the aircraft hire cost, they usually told me to sod off. If on the other hand I suggested paying 25% of the cost of a trip to France for lunch, I was generally swamped with volunteers and found that I could manage a French trip just about every weekend that the weather permitted.

From round here to France takes about an hour each way. So two hours at £110 ish an hour, less the fuel drawback (do we all know about fuel drawback?) split four ways was about £50 each. That's £25 an hour. Flying doesn't get much cheaper than that and done the way I have just described - cost sharing for a PPL holder is absolutely legal.

make more dough
 

i find taking on part-time weekend work helps keep the cost of flying in-check i am fortunate enough to be earning a wage during the week and that takks care of he bills etc,so gainning £120 per shift at weekends driving hgv,s helps keep the 152 aloft and will put a serious dent towards cpl in the future.

As an aside

Bear in mind that if that's what you'll be doing post PPL, you'll always have an instructor present as you'll likely be out with whoever you're hiring froms currency rules. Depending what you want to get out of it (ie going commercial, or just as an ambition/hobby) you might want to think about what you're going to do with the shiney poo licence. It's an expensive thing to get if you're not going to use it - see the previous post about a large percentage of people getting the ticket then giving up - from my peers on a US intensive course, 3 out of 8 of us still fly - the rest have ditched it - that was 2 years ago.

Groups/Syndicates are a great idea if you have a a few thousand availiable for the buy in.

I joined one immeadiately post PPL and without it, I would'nt be able to fly at all - if I only do 1 hour a month, I'm still significantly under the club hire rate at Aberdeen, and the savings go up from there - flying my group share is 1/3rd of the cost of the club hire!