Night Qualification currency
 

I have just started my NQ (1 hour in the circuit dual) and have had 4 subsequent cancellations due to all this fog:ugh:

Just a quick question:I completed 6 take-offs and landings (t&gX5+1 full stop) as Pu/t,do these still count towards the 90 day rule for daytime passenger carrying as I was the 'sole manipulater of the controls'

Can't wait to do the solo stuff and the xcountry nav,will this fog never
bu:mad::mad:er off?

MM

Almost certainly - but your best bet is to ask your instructor :8

Yes it will.

From Schedule 8 of the ANO:

PPL Privileges:

He shall not -

fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane
carrying passengers unless within the
preceding 90 days he has made three
take-offs and three landings as the sole
manipulator of the controls of an aeroplane of
the same type or class and if such a flight is to
be carried out at night and his licence does not
include an instrument rating (aeroplane) at
least one of those take offs and landings shall
have been at night.

The sole manipulator of the controls is a misnomer and the ANO quote from IRRenewal is utterly irrelevant.

The reference supplied and what you are confusing is self revalidation.

Training with an Instructor automatically overrides that requirement.

So as I said the training with the Instructor as PUT as per your original question is sufficient to keep you current.

As you don't yet have the qualification you don't have any currency to carry passengers at night. Once you gain the qualification, then to fly a passenger at night you will need to have completed 3 take offs and landings in the past 90 days of which one was at night. It matters not whether they were flown dual solo or as part of the course.

The answer is yes provided that you completed 3 take-off's and 3 landings as sole manipulator of the controls i.e. the instructor did not intervene or demonstrate anything during those circuits.

IRRenewal's reference is corect and the sole manipulator reference is correct.

BOSE and Whopity, I think you should re-read the question;

My emphasis.

I would be interested in how Bose describes the sole manipulator requirement as "a misnomer " and how they can say that "Training with an Instructor automatically overrides that requirement"

As far as I am aware, one can complete several hours training with an instructor but if one has not completed the required take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls then one is not permitted to rely on the training or the take-offs and landings completed by or assisted by the instructor to carry passengers under the 90 day requirement.

Regards,

DFC

But you do have to have been the sole manipulator of the controls.



How?

The training flight may(in some case) have been a demo circuit therefore the requirement IRR mentions would not be fullfilled.

Pu/t and sole manipulator are not always the same

A pilot who is out of 90 day currency can either carry out the revalidation by experience which is the 3 take off/landings as sole manipulator or they may seek instruction and such a flight will also count.

No Instructor is going to fly a single 'demo' circuit and let that count for revalidation and why would they, I know I don't? The pilot has sought training and why would a qualified pilot need an Instructor to manipulate the controls for them?

I describe the reference as a misnomer in that it is a revalidation by experience not a revalidation by a PU/T flight.

The mind boggles. I quote the relevant bit of legislation, straight from the horse's mouth, and get told that the ANO is irrelevant.

irrelevant in the context that you were quoting it.

Flying as PUT negates the need for revalidation by experience.

Bose,

The only requirement and the only method by which the pilot can carry passengers is through having completed 3 take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls in the last 90 days.

This can be;

1. completed while current in the normal course of flights

2. completed solo

3. completed with another crew member acting as Pilot in command.

If in the case of 3 the other pilot is an instructor then the flight can be dual and the time logged as dual.

Do it how you please but the only thing that gets you current is the required take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls.

IRRenewal, your quote of the ANO was both correct and relevant.

Regards,

DFC

DFC, please provide evidence of this.

It is not my understanding and not that of the CAA.

Option 3 is a no-no in single crew aircraft, such as PA28 or C172. If you fly with another pilot they must either be an instructor for the purpose, or they will book the flight as P1 and you record nothing.

Flying as PUT IS revalidation by experience. It doesn't negate the requirements, it fulfills the requirements.

Jesus you arguing semantics now. You are agreeing with exactly what I said but still trying to twist to suit your ends.

The section you quoted from the ANO refers to a pilot revalidating by experience. If they choose to undergo training with an Instructor they are no longer revalidating by experience they are revalidating through Instruction.

Write to the CAA and ask them to clarify.

Robin,

You can not log time as Pilot in command because that would make the other person a passenger and you can't do that because you don't have the required take-off and landings.

You can't log the time as dual unless the other pilot (pilot in command) is an instructor.

You can log the flight departure, and arrival times and in the appropriate column record the number of take-off and landings you completed as sole manipulator of the controls.

----------

Bose,

Try JAR-FCL or LASORS.

The requirement for carrying passengers is that the pilot in command must have completed 3 take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls in the last 90 days.

Sole manipulator of the controls means just that nothing more and nothing less.

There is noting about dual, in command, or solo. That is because the capacity of the pilot makes no difference it is the performance of the take-off and landings as "sole manipulator of the controls" that counts.

That is why you now need to log the number of take-off and landings you complete on each flight so that you can easily check that you have enough.

If you want to pay an instructor to sit beside you while you do the required take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls then good. But the fact that there is an instructor along makes absolutely no difference in how the requirement is met.

Regards,

DFC

You should Bose



It couldnt count because the student did not manipulate the controls. A qualified pilot for a variety of reasons may not allow the other pilot to manipulate the controls for landing. I know of one instructor who would not allow students to handle the Apache back into Elstree at night for instance

What a complete and utter tangent.

I did write to the CAA on that and a number of other questions and it seems they do not have a problem with my interpretation.

It's amazing how they are prepared to give guidance as the experts rather than pontificating on how they think it should be.

Bose,

Who said anything about revalidation?

We are talking about meeting the JAR-FCL requirements for carrying passengers.

When you gain soem experience as an instructor you will find that there are plenty of times when "a qualified pilot need an Instructor to manipulate the controls for them".

For example, many pilots forget to select carb heat before reducing power. Do you reach down and select it? If not then I bet you tell them to select it.

Of course, the way things work out often the pilot may only need to complete 1 take-off and landing on order to have the required 3 in the past 90 days.

Regards,

DFC