Excellent vis from a Cessna?? - agreed if you are sightseeing.


But for seeing other aircraft??? ----- 'kin joking. They scare the **** out of me. Might just as well be sitting in a letterbox looking out of the slit.

Poppycock. I have thousands of hours in cessna's and have never had a problem looking out the window and avoiding traffic.

OK then, but how do you see where you're going in a turn? (and I'm not taking the p***, it's a serious question).

lift the wing before the turn, look out the window. It's pretty simple stuff.

Good on yer then, you're the first Cessna driver I've come across that actually looks.

Then the Cessna drivers you are flying with need some remedial training in airmanship I would guess........
I have an inbuilt survival instinct, a simple check could save my life. When I am teaching I ingrain it into the student.

Bose,

The AAIB have criticised the vis of the Cessna range, for example it the case of the Tornado and the 152 over Wales. In a more modern low wing design it would have at least been possible to see the Tornado coming.

Uses for a Cessna 172 (generically, no ones personal aircraft you understand)

Hen house

Example of corrosion and its impact on structural integrity

A classic design icon in a museum

An example of how inefficient 1950’s design is compared to the current day

An example of truly appalling handling

A comparison between 1920 engine tec and how far we have come with the modern diesel version.

An example of a really bad investment as thay become more and more undesirable as the modern replacements take over.

Rod1:E:E:E:E
(No I do not work for Cirrus)

Ah! Yes I see. A cessna hit by a Tornado at several hundreds knots, the pilot would not have had a problem in say an MCR01..... :E

More uses for a 172, Night flight, night in Instrument conditions, over flight of towns.......

As opposed to the "replacements" being DAY/VFR only permit aicraft. You know what I prefer........ :p

Meet another one then. Then there are also the FIs I flew with when doing my PPL, not to mention those since then. Every single one of them lifted the wings before turning. You must have met a particularly dim bunch.

Well as a humble glider pilot I spend most of my airtime looking out of the window.

In my job I spend a lot of time being hauled around parts of Africa and S America in light aircraft, mostly Mr Cessna's products, driven by what are supposed to be "commercial" pilots.

And I've never known any of them to look properly before turning. And sorry guys, but in a high wing single, (for that read Cessna) it will always feel to me like I'm in a flying letter box.

Sorry Bose & the boys who do look out, but that's the way it is. I'm a lot happier in something like one of Mr Piper's flying devices. At least I can look for myself then.

Bose-x
 

We are all still waiting with baited breath to find out if this 11 hour endurance long range fuel tank is a factory option?

The AAIB have criticised the vis of the Cessna range, for example it the case of the Tornado and the 152 over Wales. In a more modern low wing design it would have at least been possible to see the Tornado coming.

How good was the viz from the Tornado? How come it flew into the Cessna?

“How good was the viz from the Tornado? How come it flew into the Cessna?”

The pilot and the Instructor had banked Tornado to admire a red telephone box when they tripped over the 152, which was circling and taking pictures. The angle the Tornado hit the 152 made it impossible for the pilot to have seen the Tornado, even if he had been looking. In a DA40 / Cirrus / low wing VLA etc you would not have had the blind spot, which was pointed out at the time.

Rod1

Rod1 the Tornado hit the Cessna from approx th37 o'clock position whilst travelling in excess of 250 metres per second. Now tell what civilian aircraft the Cessna pilot could have been flying that would have allowed him to see the mil jet and take avoiding action. It is interesting to note the official BOI gave the cause of the accident as "The failure of the 2 pilots to see each other". How the hell do you see something coming up your *rse at that speed?

?

Sorry I had no idea that WE were waiting with baited breath, if you were that keen to get an answer you could have PM'd me.

It is a cessna Ferry tank, goes in the baggage bay at the back. Bought it to go Oshkosh next year. Is even approved for an external filler cap.

Not wishing to be pedantic but there have been two accidents between military aircraft and 152s.

#1 was a JAGUAR and a 152 with the Jaguar hitting the Cessna from behind.

#2 was a TORNADO and a 152 in the Gamston area where the (inexperienced) Tornado student was head down in the cockpit selecting switches.

WorkingHard

I have not had time to look the exact details up so I have been relying on memory.

Not sure what “th37 o'clock” is but IF I remember the details then any bubble canopy aircraft would have had a chance to see the Tornado. Most modern low wing VLA types allow you a full view of the tail. I never mentioned anything about avoiding action!

Rod1

bose-x
 

OK so not a factory option, what I was trying to get a grip on is what the C172 can do as a production aircraft.

We can all fit aftermarket bits of kit but I suspect that the tank you have is a ferry tank that is only cleared for ferrying the aircraft, not as in the case of the Robin suplimental tank that is a standard factory option.

I have no objection to Cessna aircraft they are a very workmanlike And rugged bit of kit (I own two of them) but in pure performance terms the fact is that the 172XP is out classed by an aircraft built out of something that looks like old tea chests with a fixed pitch prop and 20HP less power in the engine department.

As me if the Robin is a realistic rental aircraft and I will tell you that I would take the Cessna each tme!

Hmmmmm..... so I take it then, they also come fitted with rearview mirrors :}

Oh no! Not again - I thought this very silly subject had been done to death before.

DAVE W - Since nobody seems to have answered your question, I shall.

In the UK and english speaking world generally, a Stall Turn is a vertical climb continued until flying speed no longer can be maintained, full rudder is applied to swing the aircraft about its "Z" axis to then face vertically downwards. A Hammerhead involves going backwards, erect or inverted (positive or negative).

However, in the USA things are a little different. There the Stall Turn is known as a Hammerhead. Why this should be so I am unable to say but they refuse to acknowledge our terminology on the basis that a stall is a condition pertinent to an aerofoil section only under load and since there is no load applied to the wing in this vertical manoeuvre, it cannot stall and in consequence the term is inappropriate. Pedantic perhaps but nevertheless correct.

For this reason it is prudent to get things clear with trans-Atlantic types. I once was teaching basic aeros in a Victa Airtourer to an American who was insistent that I showed him how to perform a Hammerhead and was quite upset at my refusal since the aircraft was not cleared for same. Back on the ground it became clear that he wanted to do Stall Turns - not "Tailslides" which is the American version of the Hammerhead.

GQ.

Meet another one. What you don't see will kill you.

The hammerhead does not involve a stall, and does not involve a tailslide.

Wilipedia:
British Aerobatic Association on stall-turns:

http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/judging...tallturns1.htm

http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/judging...tallturns2.htm

Incidentally, so far as origins of aerobatics, the first aerobatic display was at Rheims, France in 1909. Not until 1913 did Adolphe Pegoud begin displaying and performing aerobatics on behalf of Louis Bleriot. Lincoln Beachey began flying aerobatics as an exhibition pilot in the United States in 1911.

Here's another one who does the "Cessna Lift" before turning as I too want to carry on enjoying my aviating! I flown the Cessna 172 (145hp and 160hp) The older 145hp model had better visibility as the glareshield was (seemed)lower but they were both better than the PA-28.The one I flew (Warrior) had a real "junior airline pilot" instrument panel and glareshield. I'm 6' but felt my visibility severly limited by the panel. Yes, the seat was raised! This in turn reduced my view out of the upper side windows.

SN3Guppy,

This apparent confusion may be my fault. By "the english speaking world" I had intended to convey the "British Commonwealth" and should have said so. This would have excluded American terminology and thus avoided misunderstanding - sorry.

An English Hammerhead DOES involve a "stall" (just accept the term for the moment) and DOES include a Tailslide. As I pointed out in my earlier post, the English Stall Turn is analogous to the American Hammerhead and the American Tailslide translates as the English Hammerhead but the terms are not interchangeable. That's why it is important to determine that a common language is being spoken.

The links you provided will be helpful to others; they contain much information which I excluded since I was not writing a primer on the subject. For myself, I think I may just be getting a handle on these aero things - I have been at it only since 1949.

GQ.

I have never heard anyone in British aerobatics use the term 'hammerhead' as an alternative to 'tailslide'. If it was the term used at one time it has long since ceased to be in regular use. Most people hearing the word would assume that a stall turn was meant but the individual had used U.S. terminology.

However I have often heard people refer to the 'hammerhead canopy up (down) out of the tailslide' as a reference to the exit portion of the figure.

I don't know if a 'stall turn' is the same as a 'climbing turn stall' but I've done all of my training on 172s and I've seen it do loops, spins, spirals, canyon turns, etc.
In about 4 weeks the flight school I attend in Pitt Meadows, B.C., Canada will have the first flight school owned diesel engine 172M in Canada giving it a service ceiling of 18,000 ft. Aircraft Ident is C-GAME.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4579/172pvo1.jpg
This picture is the first diesel installed on a 172, it's a 172p. Turbocharged, FADEC, composite 3-bladed prop, push start, runup is: push a button for 30 seconds, watch the gauges, and listen to it feather and switch computer systems..

C-GAME
 

Yep, the Thielert 1.7 (or is it a 2.0) Centurion, now available in 172s as well. My club looked into retrofitting them to the PA-28-161 but decided against that for now. Given the weight of a PA-28-161 (and the 172 is roughly comparable with the PA28-161) the take-off distance would be unacceptable for anything but the largest GA-friendly runways. So watch those numbers like a hawk!

Mind you, once it's flying it will indeed go to 18.000 feet, and the fuel costs are about 1/4 to 1/5th of comparable AVGAS types.

Oh, and your engineers might benefit from a chat over dinner with engineers with DA-40/42 TDI (or Robin Ecoflyer) experience, so they know what to look for at 700 hours (cracked cylinder heads) and all the other teething problems that this engine seems to have.

There are NONE anywhere in Europe and they are no longer manufactured. I was last able to fly the DA40 TDi from the Flight Centre in August (NOT the fault of the Flight Centre) because they are STILL waiting for Thielert/Diamond to get their act together and produce a new engine for it. :*

My, my,

How times have changed! It seems like such a short time ago that I was comletely trashed for simply confirming that yes, a 172 could be safely rolled, by an appropriately skilled pilot. As I recall, other members expressed an intent to leave PPRuNe completly over the issue (I just ignored PPRuNe for a while).

Now I read protracted posts about hammerhead turns or stalls in C172's. What a bad idea! Cessna might find tolerance of the concept that their prized design could be flown gently through a positive G inverted manuever, but I'm certain they did not intend that it be flown backward relative to the airflow. I suppose that should be a limitation in the flight manual!

Would PPRuNe please consider splitting the Private Flying forum into "Ab Initio Flying", Private Flying for Business and Pleasure", and "Aerobatics and Competion Flying".

With this arrangement, at least the correct aircraft types could be discussed in association with the appropriate type of operation.

Pilot DAR

Oh, Lord, Pilot DAR. :ugh:You were quite rightly "trashed" for your assertion, and if you read the whole of this thread, rather than taking one or two posts in isolation, you'll see that the message here is the same simple one as it was for you:

(1) It's not in the POH
(2) It's very dangerous - for the pilots who fly after you as well as the "aeros ace" him/herself, and so:
(3) Don't aerobat a C172. :=

Tigerbatics,

"I have never heard anyone in British aerobatics use the term 'hammerhead' as an alternative to 'tailslide'. If it was the term used at one time it has long since ceased to be in regular use. Most people hearing the word would assume that a stall turn was meant but the individual had used U.S. terminology."

I was about to suggest that the term was in current use until very recently as I remember discussing the subject with a well-known display pilot whilst flying G-ACDC from Redhill (although we had no thought of going backwards in such a venerable aircraft - Dev Deverill would have killed us even if the a/c didn't!) but I have just realised that this was more than twenty five years ago so it wasn't so recent . . . Time has a strange way of being compressed as one advances in age.

Also, on a wall in the Tiger Club hangar, there was a chart of the Aresti symbols which included what you understand as a Tailslide but then was described as a Hammerhead - positive and negative. BLAC literature of the period made similar references. And I remember much the same thing in the CFI's office but this was in Cyril Nepean Bishop's time, pre-Aresti whose method was adopted some time in the early sixties, if I remember correctly.

With the assistance of the governments of the day, the British light aircraft industry quietly left the field to the American manufacturers and it would be consistent for the domestic terminology to follow a similar path; it seems that it has.


GQ.

Gipsey Queen:

You are right about the passage of time.

I joined the Tiger Club in 1978 and flew several times a week for many years until the Club left Redhill. I seldom missed a BAeA contest during that time either in the Club Stampe, (TKC was my particular preference), or later in my Pitts. I was an aerobatic check pilot at the club from the early 80's. Seems like yesterday!

I never met Nepean Bishop, known as 'Bish' I believe, but did fly the SuperTiger OAA 'The Deacon' in the series inspired by his name a few times. Lovely machine and the nearest a Tiger Moth ever came to being a proper aeroplane. I agree, Dev would have had a fit at the thought of a tailslide in CDC.

I do not recall any aerobatic chart in the hanger but I do not doubt that what you say about terminology is correct.

My point was only that the term has dropped into disuse and has suffered this fate for very many years.

What seems to have happened to aerobatic terminology in more recent times is that the language used by the FAI and in the Aresti Catalogue has become the norm. So it is 'flick roll' rather than 'snap roll'; 'stall turn' rather than 'hammerhead' and 'tailslide' for what we once seem to have called a 'hammerhead'.

However no aerobatic pilot is consistent in his use of terminology, any more than in his flying, and the only thing that is very, very seldom heard over here is the use of 'Immelmann' instead of 'roll off the top'.

Tigerbatics,

The DH82A was never a favourite of mine and, compared with the SV4, a bit of a dog but saying so will no doubt generate squeals of protest from the predictable quarters! However, it did teach me to fly and was a good ab initio trainer. Agree absolutely, Rollason's mods made a huge difference. I remember The Deacon well enough although I don't remember flying it. However, I do have an hour or three in The Archbishop (NZZ) which was like chalk and cheese with the standard aircraft- but it still wouldn't roll! Never quite got the hang of all the complication of changing to the inverted system and back - I was always nervous of the thing quitting in the middle of the procedure. A metal prop might have helped here.

More fun was the Arrow Active but it was an aircraft in which I never felt really comfortable. It certainly had a vicious temper. All very different from the well-mannered S2S; 260hp, fuel injection and c/s prop - yes, times certainly change. We thought we had hit gold with the 190hp in the Zlin! But that used to cough when you were half way round as the other carburettor chimed in. I think it's called "character" . . .and speaking of which, "Bish" was a wonderful person and a brilliant pilot; I feel privileged to have learned from him. And privileged to have lived through the last of the Golden Age.

Ahhhhh - nostalgia ain't wot it used to be.

GQ.

Quite alright. The english speaking world ceased to be limited to the British commonwealth quite some time before the breakup of the British empire.

“breakup of the British empire”

No idea what you are talking about old chap.

Rod1

I know. That's really the point. You seem to have missed it a couple hundred years ago...been going on ever since. Not to worry. More speak english outside the UK than in.

Dear boy, surely you mean more people speak a version of English outside?

It really is quite preposterous to consider the Colonies as true speakers of the mother tongue.......






run away, run away......:E:E:E

Which is the "version" if more people speak it outside the UK, rather than inside?

Pilot DAR

It's a myth, though certainly it feels that way sometimes.

Not if your'e referring to the "Queen's english." It's only superceded in ridiculousness of syntax by that of the biggest english speaking buffoon in the free world...George Bush (junior).

No, just idly following up on a comment made earlier in the thread regarding the English speaking world.

If it helps, my immediate family is English, with my extended family Irish and Welsh.