Some very good advice on here. RudeNot2, your comment about not looking at the horizon on entering sounds right: sort that and you might find it easier.

I had my first lesson of steep turns last week, and the instructor taught me to judge it by the attitude with reference to the horizon. The aircraft does have a tendency to drop its nose, and a tendency to roll level: it takes subtle and precise control with a big heave of back-pressure to counteract that and keep the attitude correct. You can't take your eyes off the horizon for more than about two seconds, before the attitude will start to drift. So you have to have a rigorous scan: horizon, balance ball, horizon, ASI, horizon, altimeter, horizon, DI, horizon, altimeter, horizon... etc.

But it's definitely doable with a little concentration. Good luck for next time! And I hope you're enjoying the manouevre as much as I did. Loadsa fun!

For goodness sake. Steep turns are a visual manoeuver - you are not flying on instruments.

Everyone seems to forget these days you are flying the aircraft by visual reference - learn to do that well first. To do so you don’t need any of these instruments, they will only make the job harder.

Why do you never do steep turns in IMC? -because even if your instrument flying is very good, you are chasing the instruments.

Learn to do it visually, even if it takes a lot longer, because you will develop a proper feel of the aircraft, you will know where the aircraft should be to maintain 40, 50 or 60 degrees of bank, and you will know whether or not you are climbing.

In short maintain the correct attitude as has already been said and you will execute a good steep turn.

uh... every other item in that "scan" was the external visual reference: I said "horizon", not "artificial horizon" or AI. It's what my instructor briefed me to do, and much to my surprise it resulted in passably well-executed steep turns on the first attempt. So I give the technique some merit.

If you're good enough to fly a steep turn in perfect balance with zero altitude change and no chance of the speed falling dangerously low, purely from the horizon, then fine - no need to look at the instruments. But as a 25-hour student flying the manoeuvre for the first time, that seems to be an unrealistic and possibly foolhardy aim.

Ultimately, I agree. You don't want to worry about the instruments when the dot in the sky suddenly gets bigger.

I know, it was the every other item that worried me. :)

Whats so wrong with just the horizon?

If you maintain your position on the horizon, and have set approximately the correct power, nothing is going to happen to your speed.

Why would you want to look at the DI? I cant think of a single practical reason why you would want to roll out of a steep turn on a heading. If you start doing aeros you will learn to roll out on a visual reference feature to maintain your position in the box.

As I said before, a flick of the eyes down to altimeter is helpful when you are learning, and IMHO that is all the is required otherewise you will over use the instruments.

I am not suggesting you will fly it perfectly - that is why the instructor is there. However ultimately your technique will be far better and you will be good enough to pass the test.

I know, I know there has been more emphasis placed on instrument training and we all become accustomed to using the instruments more. However flying some circuits with the instruments covered including the ASI and getting use to flying steep turns by reference to the real horizon are all good excercises for giving you a better "feel" of the aircraft and a better awareness that the aircraft is getting too slow or too fast.

OK Fuji, we'll differ. I was passing on briefing from my instructor that worked surprisingly well for me.

As a low-hours student, I don't yet have an intuitive ability to maintain balance, especially when flying unusual and energetic manoeuvres. So I have to check the balance ball. Same for throttle setting, so I have to check (just once or twice) that the speed isn't dropping towards the increased stall speed. The instructor asked for a 180 or a 360 and ground references weren't the clearest due to haze, so I had to use the DI to help maintain orientation.

Out of interest, how is the steep turn examined on the skills test? Does the examiner typically ask for a turn through a specified angle (e.g. a 180), or onto a heading? Or is it just to be held until the examiner asks the candidate to roll out?

I agree that in good VMC, I should ultimately aim to be able to do the manouevre without reference to instruments.

Yep, good for you. I think it works.

michaelthewannabe

Yes, I know you did it that way because your instructor said so - and rightly so. It worked for you.

All I am suggesting is give it a go my way as well if your rinstructor will let you. You may be surprised that if you set the throttle correctly to start (and you now know where it should be) and really concentrate on the horizon and nothing else it will work well as G-EMMA has found.

I agree you need a reasonable horizon.

Ask your instructor what your examiner will require - he will know.

Forget everything else, if you fly the attitude you will fly the steep turn. The key to the turns are quite simply attitude.

So eyes out the cockpit and use LOOKOUT ATTITUDE INSTRUMENTS

On the instruments use B.A.B or Bank Angle - Altitude - Balance.

Lookout - Attitude - Bank
Lookout - Attitude - Altitude
Lookout - Altitude - Balance.

So the instruments are just being used as a guide to what's going on, BUT you should be able to cover up the instruments with a map and fly 45° turns by using JUST the attitude.

As you are sat on the left if you do a left turn then the right hinge line should be just about on the horizon, if you're in the right turn your left hinge line should be about 1" below. (all specific to seat height of course)

So to reiterate - fly the attitude :)

The other thing to remember with a steep turn is that it teaches you the correct technique to get out of a spiral dive.

Go back to your steep turn lessons and try to remember what the instructor said when you were losing height throughout the turn. What he should have told you is to simply roll out of the turn a bit (to 20-30 degrees bank angle or so), then pitch up, then roll in again. Why? Because when you're at bank angles of 45 degrees or more, pitching "up" with the yoke will to a large extent only serve to increase the turn rate.

Same with the spiral dive. You are in a steeply banked turn because your attention lapsed for a few seconds, losing altitude fast. If you pull, you're just increasing the turn rate and the g loading, and you are already above Va so you might even damage the airplane. So FIRST roll out of the turn to the level attitude, then SECOND carefully pull out of the dive. (Most likely speed is increasing to Vno or even Vne and engine is nearing redline, so you also need to close the throttle.)

That same automatic recovery (roll out then pull) is what you should apply in a steep turn (45 degrees bank) if you start to lose height - although if you're quickly enough to catch your descend you don't have to close the throttle in this case.