Mad_Jock,

While you've got a CNC machine making these things, you may as well score a mark every inch and a half or so (is it?) to denote 10nm on 1:500 000 charts too. :rolleyes:

By the way if you end with non-slip material AND a tourniquet (aka. strap for leg) then is it possible that you won't be able to move your legs at all?

Perhaps we should nonimate a name for the product - 'Jockboard'?!

It won't be a CNC mill

A flow jet is a very high pressured water jet with bits of sand in it. The CNC bit once loaded can just repeat on a plate. So once its steup you hit the button and come back 10 mins later and every thing cut and no nasty edges to sort out. Only limit is the size of the plate and the machine, I will have to see what the min hole size they can make. I suppose I could try and see if there is a laser cutter about. I have never worked that much with thin section Aluminum but I know its a bastard to weld, extremely high melting point, conducts heat fast so there might be problems with thin sections warping and a laser.
I will have to ask and see what they say.

We will see whats available. The Al ones you can buy from the flight shops are about the 15-20 quid mark. But have knicker elastic and bare metal.

While surfing for cover materials I found some magnetic plastic sheet so it looks like the IR board will have a chess board on the back in the middle surrounded by non slip. Will ship with a garantee that it will piss your fleet manager off.

The reason for putting non slip on the back is to use it as the main method to stop it moving, so it shouldn't need to be to tight, the webbing I found is course weave 38mm with a 40mm quick release bayonet type buckle. There is 38mm elastic webbing as well, I will see if I can con a couple of test samples out of them.

Only thing I am struggling on is the clip for on the top to hold the paper work. The only ones I can find are Stainless steel ones for food clip board's and they are huge

http://www.teknomek.co.uk/stainless-...oard-179c0.htm

Also I don't like the idea of a huge bit of sharp metal sticking up like that. I can imagine how quickly the ball booting will start when windows start getting scratched.

Can anyone think what you would call them? Or know of a supplier who would have them.

At the moment I can only find complete clipboards with what I want on them.

I am intending to bodge together some demo models using some plate hand made, some bits from the local chandlers and butcher a cheap clipboard, experiment at work and see what works best. If it stays put and doesn't cut the blood supply off with the wx we are getting next week it should do an instructor/ppl no probs.

http://i5.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/82/67/52ba_1.JPG

I use this ex US military one, it has built in pencil holders, pencil sharpener, light, decent thick leg strap, clips top and bottom and wire ring pen/pencil holder at the top, you can get them for about $20 on the US Ebay

Something like that but lower profile so you can use it with a yoke without fouling it. You got admit that will hurt if the student does a control check and you don't spot it in time and it gets you in the nuts.

That strap won't be a problem.

And I will do it so everything is replacable.

No pencil sharpener and definately no light.

Can you also do a super-deluxe version with a drinks holder, please? ;)

Don't keep your nuts on top of your thigh then!

Shy do you fancy being the tester for the rotary perversion types?

I will try and make 3 tomorrow if Beagle has one for Fixed wing instruction, I can do the fixed wing commercial, I just need a rotary type for the third and as I don't have a clue what you guys need or do (can you even write anything?) do you need a couple of extra tech board clips on it to hold the chart?

mcgoo its the back and to the right which lifts the corner and shoves back and makes your eyes water. And its only some of them that do it. I presume the left handed ones.

MJ,

I would also be more than willing to help out with the rotary version.

I fly slightly smaller aircraft than ShyT so it might be more applicable to the instructor/PPL(H) end of the market.

PM me if you want.

B73

That can you even write anything came across as a bit rude.

It was meant to be along the lines of you have both hands full most of the time.

what do you do with your charts in a heli?

I could stick a couple of these on so you could hook the chart over the top of your paper work but still let you lift it up to see the log.

http://www.springmasters.com/sp/imag...board-clip.jpg

Mad Jock,

I'm always delighted to say yes to a freebie, of course.

To be honest, for me there is no need to include a chart clip. My chart is folded and put next to me in a safe place (slotted between the centre console and the usually empty left seat) and only used for short periods as required. I think it would get in the way if clipped onto the board as I keep it folded to a size somewhere between A5 and A4.

And I might spill me drink on it ;)

mad jock,

I'd also be happy to test your rotary version....the one WITH a clip or two for the map. Maps are a bit of a problem in an R22. I stick mine under my left arm, or by the side of the seat. But students just starting on nav have a real problem trying to fly and reach for maps in strange places at the same time. So they trying putting the map on top of the clipboard, and of course it falls off..... I haven't found an answer as yet.

Other rotary thoughts, especially for R22 pilots - needs to be narrow; I think the one I have, which Pooley's do, is even narrower than A5. I used to have one of those ex-mil ones with the pencil sharpener and light, but it's too thick; otherwise it was great. Pooley's trifold helicopter one is the nearest I've found to the perfect rotary kneeboard, but again, some people think it's too thick.

I'll be happy to test yours out on a couple of students if you like.

I buy erasable water based marker pens which simply wipe off with no need for vast amounts of nail varnish remover......am I missing something here?.....is this a fraternity hooked on vapours ?:E

Between the two (R22 types) of you decide what dimensions you want.
Just about to go out and see if i can nick some metal.

And I have sussed out a drinks holder shy a suitable nice slot in the top corners which can take the handle of a thermo mug or a can holder for the car so it hangs there against your leg.

MJ,

I haven't consulted with Whirly (I'm guessing that she might be out flying today) but here are some of my thoughts on design:

Size - I like BEagle's idea of being the correct size to hold a standard 'Shorthand Notebook' (205mm x 127mm). A5 can tend to be a little bit too big, especially if the board is actually attached to your leg.

Features - Like ShyT, I wouldn't want to be able to actually clip a chart to the board. Due to space constraints in most helis, charts have to be folded very carefully and these are then stored in one of a number of secure places (dependent upon the aircraft type).

However, there are 4 main things that I use my kneeboard to carry:
- A5 laminate sections of the local area from a 1:250k chart. Saves me having to carry a full chart for training and trial lessons.
- 'Plates' for all the local airfields. Well, not 'plates' as such but A5 photocopies for the local fields from Pooley's in case I need an unscheduled diversion. Saves having to carry a full copy of Pooley's.
- 'Frequency Reference Cards'. Both the Southern and Northern England versions.
- A couple of sickbags. Just in case a trial lesson student should need one and there aren't any to hand in the aircraft.

(Any of the A5 laminates can obviously be trimmed to fit your board size).

All of these can however be kept safe by a single clip at the top of the board.


Strap - Ideally this would have a double purpose. If not being used to strap the board to your leg, then the strap would be able to be doubled back on itself in order to keep all of the above sheets tidy.

Non-slip rubber - a great idea! It might even negate the need for a strap altogether.

re writing in helis - unless you are left handed, this can be very hard to do! Most clearances and the like have to be stored in memory (and then repeated very quickly!). I find that I can only write anything down if the helis is on the ground.


I currently use a folding kneeboard as mentioned above by Whirly (Pooley's trifold helicopter kneeboard) although due to the size, I rarely (if ever) actually attach it to my leg.


I hope this helps and makes a bit of sense!


B73

I use a bulldog clip Couldn't you too as they are one handed operation. Also thinking of Whirlybird's students it would work if Attached to a board strapped to the leg.
David

I didn't know you could get erasable water based marker pens - do they stay on quite well? (ie. does the mark stay on without being accidentally rubbed?)

Like most military types, I just throw my chart away at the end of every flight and furnish myself with a new one for the next.;)

Yep, always use 1 or 2 bulldog clips to keep the chart nice and tidy. But the point is that the chart generally doesn't need to be attached to the kneeboard.

Although, thinking about it, some sort of non-slip rubber strip on the upper surface of the clip might be useful to stop the chart sliding around if you do rest the chart on the board.

Does this make sense to you, MJ?

I stuck together a wide one and a narrow one today.

One hurdel I have discovered is locally a CNC profile cutter is a bloke with a calculator in one hand and an acetylene torch in the other. But after todays playing it should be no probs doing batches of 10 once I have made a jig up.

O well just been spoiled in Aberdeen where spark eroders and CNC gear is ten a penny and can be hired for bottles of whisky. Will have to wait until I am next through there. I had forgotten what it was like not to be able to wander around to a mates work or fire the MASHY wagon up.

I think the techy drawing clip will be best along with the bulldog clips as normal. You don't want it to secure it, just hold it. And the clips can be bent so that all you need is to give it a one handed push and its held but can be free'd up without fiddeling with anything. I am just going to clamp it with the grip for the webbing or the clamp for the pen holder in the oppersite corner from the one your using. So its pretty easy to shift it if you don't want it.

Got a sample of that none slip stuff winging its way to me.

Got the webbing from BnQ so all I need now is the quick release and a clip for the top. Hopefully I will have an email tomorrow from a promo clipboard manufacturer with some options.

So far

AL plate is 4 quid for 300mm*300mm*3mm
2m of webbing and some 4mm bolts and lock nuts 3 quid.
And 2 hour's having fun fannying around in the workshop.

So BEagle we might very well get it done for 15 quid.

Knee boards.
The ones near the bottom sound to be of the size people are referring to.

http://www.marvgolden.com/knee-boards/index.htm

I didn't know you could get erasable water based marker pens - do they stay on quite well? (ie. does the mark stay on without being accidentally rubbed?)

WH Smith or any other similar store sells them right alongside the permanent markers (look and write exactly the same). The line can be accidentally "smudged" but from experience that is rare and does not cause me any problems (not easy to erase the complete track line).

Plus point is that you can easilywipe the chart after the trip without going in search of the meths.:ok:

Personally, I would rather use my pen!

For those that insist on using OHP pens, all you really need is the orange or the white steadler eraser, sold in all good stationers. The orange one is harder to come by but its purpose in life is to remove OHP pen marks. Wow. Or just buy a chinagraph.

I personally use throwaway paper maps so have no need :}

"I think the techy drawing clip will be best along with the bulldog clips as normal."

Not sure what you mean, mj. The top needs to have the same type of sprung clip as shown in my photo, so that it's easy to release the spiral, turn over a new page, then trap the spiral again. A bulldog clip is no good for that - either it's so tight to hold the book that it needs 2 hands to open, or it simply isn't up to the job of holding the book.

You will still have your clip when I can find a supplier of them.

There were suggestions that to stop students charts disappearing down under the rudders or what ever they have on helicopters when the student has it on thier knee. A slide grip might help.

Must admit personally made them put it away so they couldn't feature crawl. Some sort of removable clip (instructors won't be wanting it) which could trap the chart but not be a fiddle to release it. The bull dog clips are used by people who don't know how to fold a chart properly. Soon as I saw them being used it was a cert that the diversion was going to need refolding of the chart in the air ;)

Ah, MJ. Your last post has highlighted some of the subtle differences between the way that 'we' do it and 'you' do it. I certainly don't want to turn this into a 'us/them, rotary/fixed' issue (there's several threads worth of debate in that alone) but just to quickly summarise:

Boats and aeroplanes have rudders. We have tail rotor pedals! ;) (Sorry but bit of a pet hate of 'ours').

'Feature/track' crawling isn't so verboten in helis. In certain circumstances, it should be positively encouraged.

I'm afraid that that's just wrong. It's a very acquired art to be able to fold a 1m x 1m CAA chart into a usable section that measures about 20cm x 20cm (and to be able to use both sides). There's no way of doing this without bulldog clips.

Also a 'trick' that I like to use but can be avoided by very careful folding of the chart. Bear in mind that we don't always have to find an airport for our diversion destination!



Essentially, most of these issues come down to the room available in an R22 cockpit ie not a lot. Remember that in flight we don't have access to rulers or whizzy wheels or even often pens; all things that you fixed wing chaps probably take for granted.

Is there anyway that you can go up for a quick spin in an R22 to see things from our perspective? (You're more than welcome to come up with me but you'll have to travel a long way south from Aberdeen!) Maybe even sitting in an R22 when it's on the ground might help...


I hope that this lot has been of help to you and really appreciate the work that you've put into this. I certainly sympathise with you for trying to design the perfect 'kneeboard'. Just look at the number already on the market but still we can't find one which really works... :{


B73

Its helped alot, it has been 4 years since I used an A5 knee board in anger. Or even put line on a chart. In fact my AA road map gets used more in the air than a chart. And thats only to find out what something is.

Its not really an effort to be honest, its just good fun. Even if I end up with a couple of kneeboads made, and my own A4 kneeboard for work it will be well worth it.

Got the none slip stuff today and boy is it none slip. There is zero chance of it moving on your leg. In fact if you were to wear shorts it could be rather painfull pulling your hairs out. And it is a cracking writing surface for a single sheet of paper.

Always willing to have a go with the darkside. If you let me know where you are I might be able to swing being rostered for a day charter near by. Hanging around a busy GA airfield is always better than watching telly in a hotel room.

Aren't they actually "anti-torque pedals"?
Pitts2112

Surely they can't both be "anti-torque" as on one hand (well, foot) you're using the torque to your advantage. "Torque control pedals" maybe?

(I was going to say that for students they're concentrating so much the pedals are probably better called "anti-talk pedals" but decided not to go there:8)

Well, technically, they are 'anti-torque device pedals' but that's all bit of a mouthful and the tail rotor is the anti-torque device in most helis so hopefully 'tail rotor pedals' will suffice!

Either which way, they ain't connected to a blooming rudder!!! ;) :ok:


PS MJ - I'll be sending you a PM tomorrow.

I've used this

www.flyboys.com/kneebwiteycl.html

for years in fast jets, light aircraft' warbirds etc. Works great, holds a standard spiral notebook and costs only $29, pretty chaep at the present dollar rate!

3 Point