Find a long, wide runway.

Piltdown Man

From the flight manual I'm looking at, the PA28-181 stall speed (full flap) is 49kias.

49 * 1.3 = 63.7

When they put digital speedos on with a resolution of .1 kts, I'll fly her at 63.7, until then, with middle aged eyesight and a small analogue ASI I'll make do with 65 - is that all right by you? ;)

Or you could try Vs x 1.23 which I believe is the modern(!) way of calculating Vref;) :ok:

Vs 1.23.....

60.27knots .... mmmm

Personally I'd be happier trimming for 65 and then easing back to 60 over the fence using back pressure for a light aircraft.

60 "feels" a little further towards the back of the drag curve than I would be comfortable trimming for, as a go around might provide a sharp nose up pitching on the application of full power.

Not in a warrior, it's 1.3 by regulation. I also think your landing comments are also more relevant to non-light aircraft operations. From observations made when sitting in the back, airline type aircraft do not land in the same way as a warrior :)

The problem with these little tips is that what happens if there is no fence? Or if you are at a big airport with the fence a long way from the numbers? What are you doing looking at the fence anyway, shouldn't your eyes be looking somewhere else? How do you know you have eased back to 60, shouldn't your eyes be looking outside at this phase of flight and not at the instruments?

Best thing to do is trim for 63 (or whatever the correct speed is) some way out on final, and maintain that pitch by looking outside all the way down until you are ready to flare. When do you start to flare? Well, that depends, but it usually would be around 2 seconds before you would hit the ground if you didn't flare.

Other tips and tricks on when to flare appreciated :)

I didn't realise that. I know that Vref for the 146 I used to fly was calculated at 1.3Vs. But the Q400 Vref is calculated using 1.23Vs. I believe it's because they now use more computery type technology to calculate it more accurately.

Absolutely right, although I still think the same principles can and should be applied to any aeroplane using relative size strips. It's all geared towards providing you with a safety margin. I agree that landing a 150 at Manchester, for instance, and trying for a greaser wont bite you 99% of the time, but one day it will. Conversely, trying to grease a Q400 (bloody hard to do anyway) at Paris with 4k to play with wont bite you 99% of the time. Besides it's good practice and airmanship to land in the right place. The touch down zone is there for a reason and I will rue the day I put my nose wheel into the mud at the far end of the runway because I've landed long.

Q400? Just like a bloody big Cessna:}

The problem with these little tips is that what happens if there is no fence?

Not a tip, just a preference.

Fence = colloquial term for the 50' threshold crossing height from which the landing performance is calculated.

Trim speed is 64kias, I use 65 'cos there's no marking at 64.

Slim, time to take some contra-literal tabs :}

From my limited experience (half a dozen landings in a 777 sim) it's not that different. You just don't hold off completely - you arrest the descent but let the wheels touch shortly thereafter.

Tim

Here is a perfect landing....well nearly!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkJtBrnk2Pw

Hang on a mo, how many fifty foot fences have you ever seen? Even the Berlin Wall was only 12 feet high, where have you been hanging out?

Call me a hopeless romantic, but the 'fence' is the ricketty barb wired structure that was around the farmer's field back in the days when you would come in with your biplane at the heading which gave you a headwind. There may have been pieces of fence missing, probably due to people coming in at greater than book speed, and starting the flare at a silly height and rolling through the piece of fence at the opposite end.

So you say you start your pitch back to 60 when at 50ft. Back of a fag packet calculations say that approaching at 65knts on a three degree glideslope you are 1000ft out. That works out to be ten seconds out. Count ten seconds, it's a long time, far too early to be starting your flare.

If you aren't starting your flare and just messing with your speed, then you are too close to the field be finally adjusting your pitch, you should be stable a lot further out than 1000ft (or ten seconds).

IMHO of course.

A student should be trimming it up for 63knts (or whatever) a couple of miles out and should "cross the fence" at that speed. If you start your flare two seconds before you would hit the ground you are just over 10 feet AGL which seems far more sensible. 50ft AGL is too far out for a student to be messing with pitch and it will inevitably end up in tears. I am all ears for other suggestions.

I think I have to give up flying now, I did the 1st and therefore only perfect landing in 2000hrs of flying last night in the chippy, perfect approach speed, perfect flare and perfect 3 pointer touching down on the numbers and coming to a perfect short smooth stop. my passenger only realised we were on the ground when we stopped. :)

I think it best of I dont push my luck any more.....:O

Slim

Were you p&ssed when you wrote your last post :}

Only a pillock (or inexperienced pilot) would drag a PA28 down a three degree glideslope from afar, if the engine quits, you won't make the threshold.

And I'm not talking about flaring, I'm talking about slowing the aircraft down to 60 knots by holding some extra back pressure instead of trimming very late in the approach. I believe that this is in line with Piper's advice for handling the PA28.

60kts = appx 27 metres per second and to get from 50 feet to 5 feet (at -600fpm) takes approx 4.5 seonds, which means you start the flare about 122m into the runway and touchdown in perhaps another 60-90m, following which you stop fairly smartly.

A an 2 mile final ?????????????? My last PA28 operating base gave a 1/2 nm final due to a CATZ, which is more than adequate for a SEP if you set up base correctly, as you said "From observations made when sitting in the back, airline type aircraft do not land in the same way as a warrior ."

Bose

Congratulations, I've never got near that smooth a landing, the best you can say aboutm ine is that they are safe.

no need to be rude F3G. I could debate your points but I think I will do something else instead :)

Slim

Banter my friend, not rudeness, I value our debates :ok:

I'm suprised no one has said this yet...

If you walk away from it it is a good landing, if you can get in the crate to fly it again it's a brilliant landing surely that's the realy factor? Bringing yourself in alive and giving the clapped out Warrior back to the club for the next hapless victim, I mean student.

Man, I had forgotten that I typed so much to get across a simple message.

Landings are all about " seeing " the only time " feeling " comes into the equasion is when the wheels touch the runway.

No, find a narrow, short runway. The incentives to a decent landing are much stronger and, in particular, the imperative to good speed control on the approach.

I rarely go near tarmac and usually screw up a landing on a long, wide runway now. In the Super Cub, I get the feeling that I am a helicopter hovering above these vast acres of tarmac and then I realise that although I am close to a helicopter, I still am not quite one! Crunch.

QDM

Final 3 - Your numbers are fine and I assume that the manual you have is appropriate for your aircraft. I'll also not argue about a knot or two. But, as I'm sure you'll agree, each aircraft type and version has its own specific numbers and these are listed its handbook. Therefore, from a practical viewpoint, we should start with the books and then apply the information contained during flight. It is also important to use the speeds for your own specific aircraft obtained from its manual and not ones from Pprune ("Oh that's Okay your Honour. I used the performance data I got from an internet forum!"). I'll have to agree that from memory the stall speeds for most of the PA28 family is of that sort of order. But for many types, that is not the case. I think we have a duty to help people to do things properly, especially those who are learning!

PM

Some are nearly right
 

It is not the total responsibility of the pilot to land the aircraft.
The pilots job is to fly an accurate approach so that the runway dos not jump up and down and sway from side to side.
The pilots final responsibility is fly accurately from a good flare hight and fly as close to the ground as long as possible.
Do that and the aircraft will land itself