To take this one further:

Assume you hold a FAA CPL/FI and a CAA/JAA PPL. All flights in the scenario below take place in JAA airspace. Can you:

a) instruct and do BFRs (FAA) in a N-Reg a/c ?

b) instruct and do BFRs (FAA) in a G (or other JAA) reg a/c ?

The FAA part is clear, as you hold the requsite license(s). But can you do it in JARland ?

Discuss.

What's a BFR? And then one may have a stab at an answer!

Cheers

Whirls

Biennial Flight Review, the FAA's equivalent of our 1 Hr with an instructor every 2 years.

BFR = Biennial Flight Review, i.e. the checkride you have to do every other year for your FAA license to remain valid. This has to be done with a CFI who then endorses your logbook. Consists of the usual check procedures, steep turns, stalls PFLs, some landings / go-arounds, slow flight, etc.

Sorry, as a helicopter pilot I have to have an annual skills test so I didn't know that!

I would say a) yes and b) no but LASORS and FAA equivalent should answer that one.

Cheers

Whirls

a) instruct and do BFRs (FAA) in a N-Reg a/c ?
b) instruct and do BFRs (FAA) in a G (or other JAA) reg a/c ?

An FAA CFI can do BFRs in any aircraft reg.

However:

Under the UK ANO, Article 36, any instruction in UK airspace requires a JAA instructor rating - unless the instructor doesn't get paid - regardless of aircraft reg. There's also 26(4)(a)(ii) which applies to the use of foreign licences in G-reg planes. Any instructor getting paid in an N-reg also falls foul of Article 140 (this applies to a pure JAA FI too; no reason why you could not do your whole JAA PPL training in an N-reg otherwise).

My understanding is that this means that:

An FAA CFI can do a BFR in an N-reg if he doesn't charge for it (or, if he does charge, does it in airspace outside the UK ANO jurisdiction*). The student is normally PIC but the instructor can be PIC instead.

An FAA CFI can do a BFR in an N-reg if he does charge for it but then he also needs a JAA FI rating (which nowadays means sitting the CPL exams, etc, as discussed in another thread) in order to legally receive the money, and the aircraft owner needs DfT permission under Article 140. The student is normally PIC but the instructor can be PIC instead.

An FAA CFI can do a BFR in a G-reg but he also needs the JAA FI rating regardless of whether he charges for it. The instructor is always PIC on any training flight in a G-reg. This is true in any airspace, UK or foreign.

In all the above, a BFR is just the same as any other sort of flight training.

Practically, you can get DfT permission (Article 140) for flight traning in a foreign reg plane, subject to the ownership rules specified on the DfT website. Basically this means you have to a part owner, with under 5 owners in total. Then you can get a BFR with an FAA CFI, but he still needs the JAA FI rating if he takes money from you. Unless he does it outside the UK airspace*

* this obviously means abroad, but the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are interesting possibilities to look at - they have their own ANOs.

It's quite a mess. In practice, the charging issue (i.e. avoiding the need for a JAA FI rating, and/or avoiding the need for the DfT permission if say there are 5+ owners) is done by flying (with the instructor as a mere passenger) outside the UK FIR and then doing the training. Or (rather less legally) by a charge for "ground school".... just like training in Private CofA G-reg planes has for decades been done in the UK.....

I think the above is right. Would appreciate references if not.

I did it on a PPL/FI for a while before doing the CPL. You have the same privileges as the CPL/FI except for getting paid.

Of course, the PPL/FI can get paid for doing ground briefing and instruction, not that I'm proposing any abuse of the system of course.

IO540, sounds more or less like my understanding of the situation, but there are two snags (hence my question in the first place):

This is interesting, as under FAA rules the student on a BFR is PIC. Reason being, that he's already got a license, hence is technically not a student any more (same, btw applies on a FAA PPL checkride, although in this case you don't yet have a license). Is this valid for all JAA regs in all JAA airspace? Where it gets even more interesting is:

Is it really ? In this scenario, the FAA CFI doesn't give any training but merely certifies that the pilot he's checking out is competent to fly. Somewhat splitting hair, I know, but that's what law is all about, isn't it :E ?

In addition to this, mind that in my orginal scenario the FAA CFI also holds a JAR PPL. Earlier in this thread it's been established that a PPL can indeed instruct (leaving the remuneration bit aside for the moment). Now, if this same chap is

a) allowed to instruct on the basis of his/her JAA PPL (no remuneration)
b) allowed to give a BFR (and get paid for it) under FAA rules

what's him/her to stop doing so in a G-reg? Flies as PPL w/o remuneration, gets paid under FAA rules. Very fine line, admittedly, but legal ?

PS: can any FAA CFI comment on wether a BFR constitutes training ? I don't think so, as for example you don't need a visa for the US if you do a BFR,, whereas the rules clearly say you need one for flight training....

You got me there, c172driver.

Obviously there are several interacting considerations:

1. Under the FARs, as a BFR "training"? I think every flight with an instructor is, but it may indeed depend on what purpose.

2. Can a pure JAA PPL really instruct at all (i.e. provide instruction which can be logged in any way)? I am not convinced that comes out of the debate in the other thread. If this were legal, there would be positively loads of PPL "instructors" freelancing all over the UK, charging for "ground school".

3. The requirements of the ANO for foreign reg planes, and what sort of stuff the DfT will allow.

In the UK anyone can instruct (I can show my daughter how to fly the aeroplane) but in order for the instruction to count it has to be given by the holder of an FI rating. That rating can be attached to any license so long as the license is equivalent to or higher than the one being instructed for (JAR).

A professional license is only required if its paid for. Absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong with instruction being given by a PPL/FI.

If you are instructing for PPL(M) or PPL(SLMG) you can be paid, even if you only hold a PPL. (have a look at the PPL privileges in the ANO)

There are of course additional requirements that come into play regarding the aircraft (suitability as a training aircraft, registration, certification etc)

in Germany it is absolutely illegal to give any kind of instruction without having an FI rating! And you better not fly in the right seat with a guest in the left or you'll lose all insurance coverage (assuming here a "standard" SEP, there are exceptions to seating like with helicopters). AND, the instruction must be in a registered school, except by transition training.
You can also receive payment in Germany for instructing any time! Many clubs reinburse their instructors perfectly legally... without a CPL. But you do have to report earnings for taxes, but that's a different story.
So, the story is here...
1) instruction ONLY with FI rating!
2) payment permissable with JAA-PPL FI or CAA-PPL FI
3) FI's are always PIC when flying as an instructor, i.e. required training flights, etc. Flying just along for the ride then usually not.
So, that's the way it is here... so I guess this is another area where there is NO European harmony! :ugh:
Westy

Westy,

OK, so in my scenario this would be perfectly legal in Germany, provided the instructor in question holds a JAA FI (PPL or otherwise). This would make him legal from a German point of view and the BFR/training (whatever it then is) would of course be legal from an FAA point of view, as he holds the FAA CPL/CFI. Correct ?

To keep splitting hair, one could argue that he's not instructing to any JAA license (as the BFR is irrelevant for this), so again: is this instruction/training ?? Guess at the end of the day it comes down to an insurance thing.

Would still be interested to hear from some FI in the US as to BFR being training or not.

And no, I won't go into the European thing :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

On a related topic, what are the rules for "freelance" PPL instructors in the UK (G-reg)?

My understanding is that this is not illegal, although training flights in Class A airspace (obviously this would be instrument training of some sort) must be done through a flying school.

Any references for any of this?

It depends on what you're doing. If it's PPL initial issue it's what it says above.

Mike

The current situation really makes no sense.

I have a long-held ambition to teach ab-initio boys and girls how to fly a Cub from a grass strip and to also teach basic aerobatics.

Albeit only a humble PPL, I believe that my experience, in excess of 500 hours in sexy sports biplanes and 200 hours in vintage taildraggers would make me better qualified than a youth with a frozen ATPL and the same hour in a 152 two hundred times.:)

So why don't I do it?:ouch:

Well an FIC costs circa £6k fully funded.:ugh:

My ambition is genuine but not fully altruistic, so I'd need a CPL to start recovering costs - 9 months of study and a further £6k.:ugh:

Twelve grand to pursue an ambition, not exactly a huge amount of money but I'm sure that I'd derive more enjoyment from pursuing a different ambition, learning to fly a helicopter!:cool: :cool:

Very true Stik.

Incidentally, can freelance instruction (still G-reg) take place for the IMCR or the IR? (I know about the "mandatory" ground school for the JAA IR, but I am thinking of whether flights logged with a freelance IR instructor would count)

While we probably have quite different approaches to flying ;), I really have to agree with stik here. This whole FTO business is absurd. Why can't you just do it like in the US, where you can home-study the whole theory, sit the exam, and if you pass - well, you're away! In any case, over there, you then still have the oral exam prior to the checkride (something a lot of people commenting on the 'ease' of an FAA license either don't know or conveniently omit....), so you get quite thoroughly tested, poked and tweaked before being let lose on the unsuspecting public.

Anyway, this gets away from my orginal question - and I'm still waiting for some input from an FAA instructor re the finer points raised in this thread.

You can do the CRI course.

Core course (1 week) and 5 hours flight training. Allows you to do differences training and the bi-annual training flight.

Can not be paid to do this instruction but capital outlay a fraction of the figures you quote.

Well you can.......but

The market for that doesn't work. The PFA coaching scheme continues to languish in the doldrums.

So the freelance CRI can't charge anything but has to get himself trained and then find people who want his services. That involves advertising and marketing, more irrecoverable expense. Club pilots will continue to do their revalidations with club instructors, which leaves private owners, not the easiest people in the world to market to, and given the choice would you prefer to spend your hour with an experienced FI or a CRI?

The answer's not to fragment training more and to introduce dumbed down ratings (what next, Daily Inspection Instructor's Rating?) but do away with dogma so people who want to instruct (rather than use it as a stepping stone to something else) can recover costs without the expense of acquiring licenses and medical certificates that they neither want nor need and which confer no tangible benefit to the end customer.

Mike

Mike, I fully agree with you.

Just pointing out another virtually unknown route to do some instructing/mentoring for people like Stik (and myself).

Current system smacks of protectionism.