bookworm

What's the latest on the weather/traffic uplink on Mode S in Europe? Pretty recently it looked like this would never come.

Not Bookworm by I can answer your question IO540.

A couple of organisations are currently investigating the provision of weather data via uplink to Garmin 530/430 and similar systems. Announcements likely later this year.

TIS (the TCAS-like traffic information seen in US terminal areas) is not currently planned for the UK at all.

Will it be specific to the Garmin, or will it work on e.g. a KMD550? The next big question will be the cost. Isn't traffic info free in the USA? And without traffic info, we are back to the £25000 TCAS...

I know nothing about TIS or TCAS (and little about anything else, many would say) but there is another anti-collison unit which depends on conflicting aircraft having transponders. See:

http://www.avionix.com/collis.html

While I am not an advocate of making transponders mandatory, I think we may have to get them by 2005-8 whether we like it or not. If so, then this 6-800 dollar kit may be a sensible add-on - if only we have the room and weight capacity to install it and batteries to run it, which I don't.

Chris N.

TIS is free in the US, and was promoted, amongst other things, to incentivise pilots to take-up Mode S transponders.

Even if TIS were to be installed on a few radar heads here, it is difficult to see that it could be charged for on a pay-per-use basis, because of the nature of the technology.

TIS does display on certain other high-end EFIS style displays in addition to GARMIN. I am not aware of it displaying on Bendix/King GA hardware, but I am sure somebody can step in and correct me.

A and C

So there is a chance that you may get weather radar info, although I suspect it costing "a few quid" may be a tad optimistic. But with regard to collision avoidance it looks like you will have to carry on to looking out of the window.

The point being made here is that some people want to fly IFR, fly through CAS and fly around weather fronts, whilst the vast majority of recreational pilots do not.

It will be physically impossible to fit these units to the majority of microlight and permit aircraft. Under the current proposal even balloons will have to have them fitted! Whilst Permit to Fly aircraft are not the bulk of the UK private flying fleet, they are a significant part of it. When you look at hours flown, I suspect that they are the bulk.

These aircraft will not be any safer with Mode S fitted. They will, however, be ripe for taxation.

The cycling analogy misses a couple of points... You only need lights on your bike if you ride on the road and you ride at night. For the lights on your bike to be effective, you do not require the installation of hundreds of millions of pounds worth of infrastructure, which you are likely to pay for everytime you go for a bike ride, on the road or off of it, in the dead of night or the middle of the day.

I don't want to get into semantics about this issue, but there are a lot of non-permit aircraft that will be caught out by this nonsense. Typically Austers, Airtourers Luscombes and a raft of early Cessnas and Pipers which are now owned and cared for by people who can't afford/don't want £100,000 a/c. It strikes me that it doesn't make a ha'porth of difference to a radar operator whether it's a permit or C of A a/c that's making a 90 knot blip on his screen.
However I've just seen on the AOPA website (well done AOPA) that the consultation process for the Elementary use of Mode S from 31/8/2008 will follow the current final discussions on the IFR stuff being introduced in 2005. Get your pens sharpened all those who want to see some mods to the proposals.

ChrisN

That product doesn't give you direction info, so you have no idea where to look, where to turn, so it is basically impossible to act on the info especially if in IMC.

But more fundamentally, so many people fly with no transponders (sometimes intentionally OFF) that the present value of TCAS (outside CAS) is minimal. You still have to keep the same lookout.

Baloons often don't show on radar, BTW (I discovered this recently with Farnborough RIS).

It strikes me that in the absence of traffic information /weather upload, the pro-modeS argument is basically a pro-ModeC argument. And how far has Mode C got? After god knows how many years there are still INSTRUCTORS who teach it should be OFF outside CAS, etc. I am not saying Mode S is justifiable for GA but it's hardly suprising that a transponder will become compulsory eventually.

Bar Shaker
 

The time that traffic is the most danger to me is on a summers day late in the afternoon flying back from Le Touquet around the north of the Heathrow zone NOT when I am in class A airspace.

And just who do you think the collision threat is from ?. Yes it is you the VFR pilot who as you point out are the vast majority of private pilots.

By 2008 a low cost low power mode S unit should be with us as these will also be caried by skydivers ! if the mandate stays as writen , the thing should be so light that fitting the mode S to an aircraft without an electrical system should not be to much of a problem.

A and C, Im glad you think its going to be no problem to fit mode S even to aircraft with no electrical system. I hope you and your friends who want everyone to have mode S will solve the biggest problem then, to pay for the unit and the installation.
It might not be that high a cost compared to the value of the aircraft, but it is a significant cost compared to what people pay to fly each year. If instead of waasting £1000s on this equipment they flew a bit more and got more current, then perhaps the few controlled airspace infringements would be reduced as people would remember how to navigate!
If I only want to fly outside of controlled airspace from small airfields and farm strips, I do not see any justification for fittting Mode S. If I want to fly into Class D and above then maybe.
Im not particularly bothered about people being able to see what I am doing- if Im away from controlled airspace, Im sure the controllers have better things to do than watch me. I would be very much against anyone else having the information though, other than ATC or other aircraft TCAS.
Some people think its great for weather info etc, well if they want that, then they can pay for it, just as they can pay for their GNS 430 and I can buy a map. It may well also be a good idea for IFR aircraft and they can pay for it too. But dont force it onto us VFR day only aircraft.
Ive got no complaints about the UK airspace arrangements either, although perhaps the base of some airways is a little low in places and there are some large control zones that could be smaller- seems a lot are based on the climb rate of an overloaded DC-6 with an engine out, rather than a modern airliner. Having lived and flown a lot in France too, I didnt really see a much better system there- yes the population is more spread out, so big towns with big airports further apart, but there are a lot of military zones that you sometimes cant cross and some of the Class D zones are more helpful than others- just like comparing the friendly East Midlands, to the less helpful Stansted.
Surprising that IO-540 says that the pilot population is falling. Might be true I dont know, but the number of aircraft on the register is increasing and the fact that kit/homebuilts are completed much quicker means less non airworthy aircraft on the register. Maybe its just Group A PPLs that are reducing, whereas Group D PPLs and NPPLs are increasing. It is true that we need to attract more young people into aviaiton, the Microlight organisations seem to have success in this area, perhaps we can learn from them.
Lets hope we can get an exemption from these rules after 2008. Even if it is a European rule, I cant see why we couldnt have a national rule for aircraft that only fly in the UK outside controlled airspace. PFA, BMAA and BGA are all active on this subject, so I hope everyone shows there support by joining at least one of these organisations.

Cubflyer

I don’t think anybody here really wants mode S compulsory; the point being made by some is that it should not be such a big deal. You say the cost is too much for infrequent pilots but infrequent pilots with no money are usually self fly hiring so won’t be paying that money. If you are an owner then the XP cost will be a small part of the ownership costs, and if you are an owner and fly say 10 hrs/year then you can’t claim you are particularly concerned about value for money.

If anyone is backing an XP for VFR it would be Mode C; Mode S brings no additional benefits because mode C is just as good for telling the local radar how high you are (which really IS pretty important) and for activating other peoples’ TCAS.

The # of aircraft on the register may be increasing but that’s to be expected, with the average age of the GA fleet increasing almost a year for every calendar year. The planes aren’t the future problem; it’s the operators. There is another 10-15 years to go...

You are dead on about better navigation being needed but that opens a much bigger can of worms. There really isn’t any way, or a will, to teach better navigation within a “45-hour” PPL than the traditional dead reckoning, flying a wind corrected heading by reference to a dodgy DI which drifts a few degrees every few minutes, a dodgy ASI, and having used rarely accurate winds aloft data off Form 214, even if you do a super accurate calculation using that ridiculous circular slide rule. What is needed is a wholesale intro of GPS into the PPL; perhaps you can mention it at the next CAA safety seminar and see the reaction from the audience there… :O

When I had a transponder equipped aircraft I upgraded it to Mode C and it was always on when I flew. That was a while ago and I've since flown non-transponder equipped aircraft and not seen a difference in terms of traffic avoidance. I agree with IO540 that if there is to be compulsory use of transponders, why not use existing, proven and relatively cheap Mode C for day only VFR aircraft as it gives ATC all the info required from a VFR pilot. Unless the Mode S is going to provide me with a basic TCAS system cheaply then it is of absolutely no advantage to me compared to Mode C but I'm the poor Joe who has to pay for the installation.......


I will never have a need for weather updates to a Garmin 430 cos I'll never fit one to my aeroplane. TAF's and METAR's are quite sufficient to keep me on the ground if required. A chart and uploads from NavPro to my Pilot III keep me out of areas where I shouldn't be.


Finally, as the airfield I operate from is slap bang under LTN approach, my transponder probably would not be turned on until clear of the zone as it would be setting off easyJet and Monarch TCAS's left right and centre. Bit of a waste of money there then........

Worth a bit of historical background here.

In 1997 ICAO (note not JAA or CAA) passed an amendment to SARPs to require all aeroplanes and helicopters to carry pressure-altitude reporting (Mode A/C) transponders from 1 Jan 2002. It was passed in conjunction with ACAS/TCAS requirements for commercial transport aircraft, the idea being that there's not much point in mandating ACAS if the object they are trying to avoid can't be detected by the ACAS.

There's also a European push towards Mode S rather than Mode A/C. There are two underlying reasons for this: a lack of sufficient Mode A codes for airways flights, and a crowding of the radio spectrum which means that Mode A/C starts to get unreliable. Mode S has many more codes and is selective, so it doesn't suffer from the crowding issue.

We are two years past that ICAO deadline, and it hasn't been implemented in the UK -- it has in most other states. It was delayed because the CAA believed that it was an unreasonable burden on operators of aircraft without a transponder to require a Mode A/C transponder that would only be replaced a few years later by Mode S.

Trivial, baseless requirements don't get through ICAO. The requirement for transponders was a recognition that see-and-avoid just doesn't work well enough for modern aircraft travelling at modern speeds, and that an automated system is vital. UK airspace is as complex as it is because it is set up to separate most of the fast moving traffic from the bimblers, though that's precious little comfort for pilots trying to reach regional airports outside the airways structure.


BTW, the US is always held up as a champion of the freedom of the air. The requirement for Mode A/C transponders within 30 miles of major airports have been in place for more than 15 years. If they were implemented here they would affect most of the southern UK, as well as significant parts of the rest of the country -- for example, you wouldn't take-off from Barton without a transponder.

Whether you like my cycling analogy or not, equipping to allow your aircraft to be detected by others is going to be the price of entry into any airspace in the 21st century. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Commercial traffic pays an ATC fee for every flight.

Once the secondary radars have been built and wired up, we will be monitored for every flight we make. The coffee that I'm smelling is that we will pay for this "service" every time we fly.

I must take issue with the statement that modern speeds and aircraft have negated the "see and be seen" principle outside controlled airspace. I don't want to do "touch and goes" at Heathrow but I will take responsibility for looking out for other traffic in uncontrolled airspace. As I said in an earlier post there have not been any GA/Transport mid-airs to my knowledge so the system ain't bust. By the way are modern single-engined piston GA aircraft much quicker than a 1930's Percival Gull or Miles Falcon? I don't think so and those guys managed without radio.

Once the secondary radars have been built and wired up, we will be monitored for every flight we make. The coffee that I'm smelling is that we will pay for this "service" every time we fly.

Absolutely right - charged for a service we neither want nor need because someone far more powerful than us would have their lifes made a tad easier and make a buck or two out of us as well.

Bookworm may be happy to just to relinquish our rights and rollover and let recreational fun flying be trampled on and then ripped off by commercial aviation, but a few of us think that is completely unreasonable.

SSD

Too right SSD, They will charge us to install the equipment we dont need, charge us to certify that it works every year and then track us and charge us for using their ATC services that we dont need!

IO-540, the cost of the equipment is significant. There are lots of cheap one or two seaters owned by groups, where people even flying as little as 10 hours a year are saving compared to hiring club aircraft. some of these aircraft cost as little as £5000, so a mode S transponder is going to be 50% of the cost of the aircraft!!

There is no reason people couldnt be taught reasonable navigation in the 45 hr ppl, or even a 35 hr ppl, if it wasnt done at a large airfield with giant circuits. Then people might not take 20+ hours to go solo, but might go solo in 7 or 8, thus a lot more time left for Navigation! Hopefully if the NPPL gets more popular and can be done in permit/private cat aircraft from unlicenced airfields, then the rate of learning will be much quicker, just as it is in the microlight world.

The US does have a few places where Transponders are mandatory below the TCA, not sure if they are all 30 mile diameter though. However, there is an exemption for aircraft without electrical systems flying underneath the controlled airspace. The vast majority of US airspace can still be flown in without radio or transponder.