Which plane should I learn in?
 

Im going to do my PPL in January and I'm not sure which plane to train in. I want to learn in a 4 seater and the school I'm going to has the Cessna 172 and Piper PA-28-161 Cherokee Warrior II. Is one of these better than the other or are they both as good as one another? Thanks in advance for your help!!



James

Both are fine. There's an endless flamewar between high-wing and low-wing fans, but there's nothing wrong with either aeroplane. Only real consideration would be what you are going to fly afterwards (edit: D'oh! Read the bl**dy location, Evo... :rolleyes: ) and if a more 'interesting' two-seater is available - converting to a PA-28/C172 is not hard, and you don't really need 4 seats while you are training. Learning on something that requires a bit more in the way of stick and rudder skills will do you good in the long run.

Yeah you got me! Im going to the US to do it. Its not that much more to do it in a 4-seater and a friend told me that it will always be easier to fly the first plane you learn in. I will want to be hiring 4 seaters in the UK and I know that when I do come back to the UK I will have enough trouble as it is adjusting to UK flying (radio and more congested airspace etc) so I thought if I start with a 4 seater it would be easier.
If I did it in a 2 seater the 152 is my only option in the US.

Thanks

James

Ah, didn't need to edit then - posted something assuming you were in the UK and then saw you were in Osaka... :)

Do you know where you'll be flying in the UK and what's available? Obviously getting used to the UK will be easier if you aren't learning to fly a new type as well. Never flown a 152 so I can't really comment, but i doubt it is very different to the 172 - may as well go for the 4-seater. Why not try both the PA-28 and 172 and see which you prefer? Most of us are used to one type before we try the other, and end up as die-hard high-wingers or low-wingers

Hoi,

I think it is more important to focus on a good school than on what aeroplane you are going to fly.

It may depend a little bit on whether there are any monetary or weight constraints to take into account.

If you are heavy you would be better to do it in a four seater, if money is tight in a two seater and if you can not make up your mind have an hour in each and see what you like best yourself.

High or low wing is very much a matter of taste.

FD

Im in Osaka working (English Teacher) but leaving soon to go home. After Xmas going to Florida. I am from Manchester so will probably join Lancs Aero Club at Barton. They have 172s and PA-28s.
When I come back will I need a lot of time with an instructor to get used to flying in the UK? What exactly is different and how?

Thanks
James

Hi James,

How long is a piece of string?

Most people make the transition to a new type quite quickly and find the difference in flying rules/airspace not too daunting.

Have fun.

FD

Agree with FD that the school, and the instructor, is far more important than the aircraft.

That aside, have a go at both, and see which you like the most. They are so similar in every way that counts that it's impossible to recommend one over the other. I've flown both. I'd say the advantage of the C172 is that it has doors on both sides which makes getting in and out easier, compared to the PA28 which only has a door on the passenger side. The C172 also has windows which can be opened during flight, which is nice in the hot weather that we always have in the UK. ;) I don't know if all C172s can be spun, but the ones I fly can, which might be a factor if you're into that type of thing.

The PA28, on the other hand, is nicer looking aircraft IMHO, which is very important! :D The -161 can't be spun, although the -140 can. Personally, I prefer the low wing - much better visibility in turns. But as Evo says, this is a personal preference, and plenty of people prefer high wings (and if I'm taking someone sightseeing I prefer a high wing so my pax can see the ground better).

There might be other factors to take into account. For example, the club I rent from has some old PA28s - well looked after, but some of the avionics are a little tired, or missing altogether. The C172s at this particular club are brand new, kitted out with all the latest gear. The C172s cost more, because they are newer - but all this brand new kit is completely unnecessary for a new PPL (but very nice if you're planning on flying in IMC later on). It might be worth checking with Lancs whether there's any reasons such as this why you might prefer to hire one type of aircraft over the other.

Good luck!

FFF
--------------

bmb7jiw,

As FFF says there's very little to choose between them. I did my training on a mixture of 152, PA28 and 172. Some people prefer to stick with one type, but I actually found it more interesting and educational to swap to and fro. It was helpful from a practical standpoint too since I never had to cancel a lesson because of lack of availability of one particular type.

As others have said, very little to choose - I've flown PA28's (from -140 up to Archer) and C172's (including the new, fuel-injected SP).

The only bit of real feedback I would give, based on personal experience, is that you may learn how to land better in a 172:

- full flap landings require accurate control of speed and power settings
- more reactive to x-wind, due to high-wing config
- "greasers" easier to achieve in PA28 due to "ground-effect" (but too fast on a warm day and you will "float" forever)
- take-off's a different ball-game though. 172's seem to reach the correct speed and fly-off, whereas PA28's (especially the heavier Archer) need quite a marked haul back to rotate.

I learnt in a Robin and then bought a Cessna 152! I now switch backwards on forwards between my 152, Duchess Twin and a Senneca Twin without problems.

I think the Cessna is a wonderful aeroplane to fly which takes mastery to fly well. I think they are a great trainer and a good choice to learn in.

I don't think it is difficult to transition to any aircraft type if you have correct instruction. I have always sought out good instructors who have made the move seem easy. I now fly nearly 20 different types including microlights.

I would not have chosen to learn in a 4 seater as there was only me and an Instructor in there, why pay more. Now I often fly with 5 passengers and choose the aircraft that suits the job.

Choose a good school and a good Instructor, try a couple of different types and get on with it!

:ok:

I learn't in and fly now the PA38 - i like it but havent flown any other a/c so cant really say which is the best to learn in - people do say its a good a/c to start out in though

Spike

I learnt to fly in a Harrier GR5! :D I was developing the simulator at the time (late 80s). I spent many night shifts teaching myself with a bit of help from a pilot colleague. After a few weeks I could fly a fairly stable approach with only 1 in 10 landings resulting in a fireball. :ooh: I don't suppose the CAA would accept those odds, but I was impressed. It had a practical purpose as I had to test the bombing system by flyng sorties over the North Sea, destroying any ships I came across (mostly fishing boats and ferrys, but you never know where the enemy could be hiding :E ).

When I moved 'on' to a real C-152 (also a single engine plane) several years later, I immediately felt at home in the cramped cockpit, recognised most of the instruments and knew what to expect from the primary effects of controls. It was a bit tardy though. And I still haven't found the thrust vectoring lever.

When I progressed to a 4 seater Archer, I found the extra 20 Knots in the circuit a bit of a handful at first. You have to think ahead a bit quicker to get everthing done. I am not sure if this would be an impediment to initial training. On the one hand, you are busy enough in the early days so more speed would make things worse. On the other hand, if it's all new anyway, there is nothing to compare it to and you would just learn to do it.

TallGuy.

p.s. I learnt to fly IFR the same way, this time in an MD82 simulator that was finished except for the visual system so all flying was done looking at a white sheet.

Tall Man,

Surely not the same Harrier Flight Sim that I learnt to fly in at RAF Wittering back in 1986? Taxpayers money always well spent.

It was the best toy on camp, only equalled by the Wittering bowl!

Chimpmunk
 

I don't have a preference between the two planes that you've identified, but the real answer to the question posed in your subject line is: DHC-1. :ok:

Spam cans are all very well, but they are not the preferred training mount if you have a choice.

bose-x

That would be the one! It certainly was a good toy. I remember firing up the engine one night without a helmet on. Was deaf for 24 hours! (huge speaker system hidden behind the seat). That 360 degree visual system was unbeaten for quite a few years. I liked the way the straps pulled you hard into the seat to simulate G forces.

TG.

bose-x
You prefer the cessna to the Robin :confused: - just goes to show what odd people there are around:hmm:

I Was learning to fly in a c-150 at sherburn, but after doing 9 hours in it, and talking to th CFI there, ive decided to start flying the cap 10b that they have there insted.

Im not sure if its the most sensible decission ever, but im looking forward to flying for the first time on monday. Ill tell you how i did on monday night.


What does everyone think of my choice? good, bad, indifferent

NB

I did my PPL on a 150 and a 172 and now fly mainly low wing aircraft. However, I think the Cessna 2/4 seaters are a bit like the VW Beetle...if you learnt on one it has a special place etc etc.

If cost is an issue, simply go with the cheapest, if it isn't...can I have a loan?

Wherever you end up flying, you'll need to do a check ride at the very least before you can hire and will want to do a few hours under the guidance of an instructor to get up to speed with UK airspace and these could easily be familiarisation time on a new type.

My opinion is that speding the extra to take to empty seats flying for 45hrs PPL training is probably not necessary.

The CAP10 is a fantastic aeroplane. If you've got the money then go for it. Wish I could have done that :) :) :ok:

Well ive got my first lesson in the cap this monday, Ill give you the lowdown on how it went then.

But im really looking forward to it, at last, a control column and a tail wheel, like a real aeroplane...

NB

Thanks!
 

Thanks a lot guys!
The flight school I'm going to has said I can try both out and then make my mind up so I will do that.

Thanks again!

James

Good luck - be interested to know which one you pick :ok:

James

I'd take the PA28 if I were you.

Having learned on PA28s (but also done many hours on C172), the aircraft is very docile and forgiving, easier to handle in a cross wind when you're low time and very stable.

If anything it is too easy to learn in and the C152 would probaly make you a better pilot.

I've nothing against the 172 either, a great aeroplane despite the knocking of those who don't like spamcans - 36,000 customers cannot be wrong. The 172 has better short field performance than the PA28 IMHO.

If you choose the 172, you will have made a good choice too, but the PA28 would be my personal decision in your situation.

Ninja - DEFINITELY the better option:ok:

Foxy,

The 152 is a love machine! I always find the Robins (HR200) a little unstable in pitch, they don't trim very well.

The 152 is a lovely graceful aeroplane that is a pleasure to fly and takes some effort to fly really well. Perfect as a trainer and onwards. Cessna designed it as a "commuter" and thats just what I do with mine, flying between my 2 offices very regularily. Both conveniantly placed next to an airfield and with Instrument approaches either on the airfield or close by!

It has good legs on it, I have flown mine more than 200 of the 340 hours that I have flown this year. Visiting Belgium, France and the Channel Islands in it.

It does benefit from being airways equippend, Garmin 340a and Fuel computers.

I would take it over just about any other 2 seater out there!

bose-x

I agree with you. The 152 is a fine little aircraft - it does exactly what it says on the box and the running costs (from an aeroplane) are reasonable.

Whilst Pierre Robin built some good aeroplanes, I can't help but think that a bit of a mythology has grown around them, due in part to some strong support in the 80s from a well known aviation writer. They're good, but then again so are a lot of other SEPs.

I really don't think that the kind of aircraft you learn in makes a differance. I mastered the basics of flying in a Robin HR200, but can get in to a 172 and fly it with ease. (although I need an instructor as I'm not licenced yet.)

a 152 might be a good choice for you're PPL. Why would you neet to train with two spare seats in the back? in my experience, these are good to put your lunch box on, but not "needed" for normal flight training.

My advice would be to do your PPL on a 152 and when you're licenced spend a couple of hours on a 172 or PA28 with a QFI doing a checkout. Converting between a 152 and a 172 is a no brainer, and converting to a PA28 is easy as well.

WF.

Which type
 

In my local club, the choice is C152 v C172 - alright if you like boring spam-cans

Not a lot to choose between them but for post-PPL the C172 is the better option.

Personally, I prefer the PA28/Robin route, but there are fewer Robins in the UK. The position of the door is a pain, but you aren't going to get out anyway...........

For me, the high-wings are claustrophic, and the low-wing spam cans boring, but, as a newbie, you'll learn that later

I'd recommend, as stated elsewhere, invest in a couple of lessons at different schools and using different types to see which suits you best - your PPL career is dependent on the best school for you, your post PPL career is down to you

foxmoth - maybe if you talk nicely to Graham... :)

You must give me a few lessons some time! Although I've had a license for several years now, and have soloed 12 different types, I have yet to truly master the basics! ;)

I had my first lesson in the cap 10b at Sherburn today, after my lesson on monday was rained/blown off.

First impressions were fantastic. It climbed like a rocket, up to 1000ft, were we turned south away from Linton MATZ, for a bit of general handling, a few turns and stalls. (you get a LOT of wing drop on a power on stall) and even a couple of loops and barrel rolls :) :) :)

I struggle to compare it to the cessna, the controls are light, really well ballanced, and super effective, and it cruises at 130kts, combiened with almost glider like visibility.

After 40 minutes, i returned to the circuit, for a few touch and goes, which were a little of a handful in the strong wind, and taxiing accross the wind or downwind leaves you peddaling like a deranged cyclist.

After lunch, once the wind dropped down to 16kts or so, I did a few more dual circuits, before going off solo for a few circuits myself.

Had a fantastic day, and i definately think im going to finish the rest of my ppl in this aircraft. Its a bit more expensive than youre average spamcan, at £120 per hour, but its definately worth it. The only big problem is how silly you look until you can go and get the daft grin surgically removed from your face.

I had only done the first 9 hours of my ppl before today (plus some motor glider hours), so everyone reading this who has a ppl, but only ever flown in pa28/c150s should have no problems at all.

If everyone could just avoid going down there too often, until i finish my ppl, as the availability is currently very good, and i dont want it to decrease to much :E

Ninja Bill