Maybe they are doing winch launches and circuits?

Glider pilots. If the safety experts dictate a change then so be it. Live with it like we all have to in powered flight. So your glide ratio is lessened. Won't that apply to everyone so the level playing field remains. many of us don't need or want FM immune radio fits. BUT if we want to use certain airspace then we have to have it fitted. If it is decreed that a transponder is required to be used for any flight then as I said so be it

Lets treat gliders like other dangerous things in this PC age and ban them.

Airspace should be optimised to support commercial aviation; GA at least provides ab initio training for future ATPLs in the form of PPLs, but what use are gliders?????

Sorry guys, but your are the weakest link .................... goodbye

Hi There,

After the last couple of posts I could not resist putting my opinion across.

We seem to be getting into a GA vs Gliding debate and as a regular of both I feel able to comment.

We only seem to be considering high performance competition gliders at the moment. I would suggest that the reality is that most gliding is carried out in simple wood/fabric/steel gliders with almost no electrical system – often no radio. The concept of retrofitting the UK’s entire glider fleet with a ram air turbine, strobe system and transponder is simply totally impractical and would double the cost of many aircraft. Many people choose gliding because they can afford it – less than £25 per hour in many cases! FM immunity might seem painful but GA regularly flies in all manner of airspace where aircraft do rely more on technology for collision avoidance – gliders do not!

As an instructor I always tell my students that the best way to stay alive in any cockpit is to scan every visible part of the sky every few seconds. You might not spot the glider until quite late but I bet it’s not too late – and that’s what matters!

We are just coming up to 100 years of powered flight (and a few more for gliding) – for how many of these years has flying been relatively safe and for how many years have we had TCAS, GPS and all the other gizmo’s?

Keep Looking!

I think the major problem here is that the gliding community are perceived to be against anything that imposes any kind of restriction on them. Stop saying "we are gliders and are exempt/cant do that/wont do that" Join the real world and enjoy what you have but in a way that is safe and secure. And yes Rich we have had 100 years of relatively safe skies but we now have things like regulated airspace which did not used to exist, we have aircraft exceeding 50mph (closing speeds, time to avoid etc) and because of cost we have (I think) huge numbers of gliders compared to say 20 years ago. Take great care to be responsible and acknowledge others or be regulated. That I think is the choice you face.

Rich

I was being ironic, but making the point that WorkingHard puts very nicely in his post.

GA is suffering from commercial aviation demanding more and more airspace and gliders will inevitably feel the same pressure to come under regulation that will not be palatable.

Its time to wake up, smell the coffee and be a little more proactive methinks.

Surely if you just paint the feckin' things a different colour then we would all be a lot safer.

The theory about different colours causing ultra violet rot is a load of cobblers. They can be painted a different colour and should be as far as I'm concerned.

SEE AND BE SEEN:rolleyes:

Presumably, Mode S won't apply to gliders?

I just avoid Aston Down now! :)

IMHO the only people qualified to express an opinion are active glider and power pilots: rich_hodgetts et al. Anyone who has experience in only one 'discipline' lacks necessary perspective.

Fibreglass gliders must be white, period, for anti-UV reasons (ToryBoy, I presume that you have a D.Phil. in FRP engineering?:rolleyes: ). But I like david viewing's idea of some sort of reflector panels ... that might help, and probably wouldn't cost much in terms of dollars or performance.

MLS-12D and others,

The reason for the white colour is not so much for UV protection, but because coloued gel-coat gets very very hot in direct sunlight. This could breakdown the internal structure of the FRP components (wings, fus, etc). The big problem is that this damage is not visible until it is too late.

Newer GA and commercial aircraft that make extensive use of FRP will also be all white for exactly this reason.

Some gliders have had the wing tips, nose and part of the rudder painted in bright colours - in areas outside those considered critical or high load. In practice, they make absolutely no difference to visibility.

I would be interested to see someone research using the reflective tape used in marine foul weather clothing. This could be set into the gel-coat and achieve a good finish. As it reflects light, heat build up should not be a problem.

From a different perspective, when flying in airspace designated for see and avoid, flying an aircraft with a limited view could be perceived as the problem.

Increasing the amount of controlled airspace is not the answer. If you reduce the area available uncontrolled, you just increase the density of aircraft, increasing the risk of collision, you also increase the risk of airspace infringements which is bad for everyone.

MLS12D

As does someone from Canada commenting on UK issues.

WNE

Controlled airspace is not a result of GA lobbying, but pressure from the commercial lobby. Have you considered the implications of the proposed Stansted expansion?

However, if and when the airspace is reduced again, glider pilots may well come under pressure to carry x-ponders etc.

Hi Vis Panels
 

The Royal Air Force is currently experimenting with orange dayglo panels at two spanwise locations (each panel approx 1m square) on the wings of its glider fleet (as used by the Air Training Corps). I have been flying in and around these aircraft with these panels for a while and in my opinion they do make it easier to spot white aircraft in some ways. What they do not do is make a gliders front or rear profile any larger which, when talking about spotting gliders from a distance is really the problem! Maybe a reflective foil type material along the leading edges of the wings might make a significant difference with little or no loss in aircraft performance.

The whole idea of gliders flying in controlled airspace is, in my opinion a dubious one - they just do not have the freedom to do what they are told. How can we get into a situation where a controllers actions force a glider into a field with the corresponding increased safety risks. At present I think that the vast majority of glider pilots give radio controlled airspace a wide berth and regardless of any future airspace restrictions thats the way it will stay for a long time.

No MLS-12D, I don't have a D.Phil in FRP engineering but I have spent several weeks looking into this for someone with the help of someone far more informed and far less opinionated than yourself.

You said yourself that you've never seen a glider whilst flying powered a/c.

I rest my case:hmm:

I am on the staff of an ATC Gliding School (winch-launched) in Kirknewton and have to say that the Dayglo panels assist to some extent in seeing a glider that is within (say) 700m, dependant upon aspect angle. If the glider is over that sort of distance, I can often see the glider outline, but cannot detect the Dayglo panels. The panels appear to be more visible when the sky is overcast and grey, rather than light and sunny with scattered fluffy Cu clouds!

Rich H

I understand your comments about gliders and controlled airspace - in fact, I'm not suggesting that gliders should fly in it, but as uncontrolled airspace is eroded, I can see the pressure for gliders to carry x-ponders or strobes building etc.

It's a shame, but like the pistol shooters who basically lost their sport a few years ago, sometimes these things are imposed on communities for the 'public good.'

I think a lot of gliders pilots wouldn't mind having a transponder if they could have one, but the kind they need are just now getting available and still too expensive. For one it's a weight problem, then the matter of where to put it... there isn't much room left on the panel.... then there's the problem of the electrical connection.... the normal glider battery would just die out too soon. If these problems were already solved, then I'm sure they would already be required! So, let's just wait until the proper equipment gets available.
As to balloons... they, too, they are not required yet. Here there is also the electrical problem... without a motor, no electricity!! :eek:
I always say, if everyone would abide by the rules (restrictions) already in effect, then we wouldn't need new ones! But when you hear about some idiot glider flyer circling above Frankfurt airport within airspace "C" (he was seen by an Airbus... of course ATC couldn't see him), then no wonder we get more and more restrictions!! :mad:

Westy

To the unopinionated ToryBoy :)

Painting GRP structures doesn't help visibility. There have been a couple of studies published in Sailplane and Gliding done with motor gliders, and they found that there was no significant improvement by adding reflective panels. In fact at some angles it made things worse as the colours broke up the outline.

I would also ask the engine followers how many of you have your strobes on all the time? Does it actually make you that much more obvious on a bright day?

Cheers

John

Engineless John

I certainly use strobes all the time when airborne, not least because it helps birds to see and avoid - as such its pretty basic airmanship for the powered community.

I also use landing lights in the circuit, on the basis that it may not or may not help, but it certainly does not do any harm.

True enough. However, I wasn't purporting to do so. This is not a 'UK only' forum; or is it? :confused:

Thanks WNE. I stand corrected. I confess that I have little experience with glassfibre aircraft; most gliders that I have flown are metal (Schweizers, Larks, and Blaniks). I do have plenty of friends who own glass ships, and while the performance is enviable, the gelcoat problems that many of them have experienced (with 20+ year old gliders) is not. Life is a compromise, right?

MLS-12D

It is not a UK only forum nor is it a forum that denies any constituency a view, so please think about that the next time you decide to discriminate.

This is private flying and glider pilots are most welcome to express views, but so are powered pilots, so your comment was way out of line.

Airspace access for ALL recreational aviation is going to be the big issue of the future, if you ask me. I'm surprised the GA mags don't cover it more.

I am both a powered pilot and a soaring pilot. I trust that entitles me to express a view, if you can find it in your heart to permit.

"Your comment was way out of line", indeed ... :suspect:

Dear MLS

Shall we get back to the original thread with everyone contributing?

Mmm I've not seen this level of personal slagging in Private Flying before. Chill chaps, ever since the emancipation of the slaves I thought everybody was entitled to an opinion.......:hmm:

The only glider I've ever been in was an open cockpit Slingsby back in my Air Cadet days. I've seen loads since in our crowded UK airspace. Given the vast expanse of Canadian skies I can understand how MLS-12D hasn't seen a glider whilst flying powered aircraft.

I still grin when I remember listening to a conversation between an American bizjet pilot and Luton Radar. You could hear the unasked question (gliders? International airport?) when he was refused a descent to 4,000' as there was glider activity beneath him :)

The invisibilty of gliders was discussed a while ago here. Somebody posted the frequency that gliders use as a "chat" channel. Can anybody here refresh my memory?

LnS

So did I.

Never flew the 'Capstan', but I have a few hours in Blaniks and K13s. You certainly learn how to use the rudder in gliders.

I'm not surprised that MLS hasn't seen gliders when flying powered aircraft in Canada either, a lot of Canada is covered in white snow for much of the years and gliders are coloured..... ;) (only joking!)

LowNSlow wrote [snip] "Somebody posted the frequency that gliders use as a "chat" channel. Can anybody here refresh my memory? "

There are 5 channels used by gliders, but they have specific purposes, not general chat, and all except 129.9 are very crowded most of the time, certainly on the good gliding days. Bear in mind that nearly 100 gliding sites have to use just these, as well as gliders talking to car mobile bases - we don't get allocated different channels for each aerodrome. (The channels are allocated by CAA/RA; the uses are as recommended by the BGA.)

130.4 - cloud flying and cross-country location messages only

130.125 (i) Training (lead and follow) other cross-country; (ii) local and other flying,

130.1 (i) competition start and finishes, local and other flying; (ii) training (lead and follow)

129.975 as a control frequency within 10 nautical miles of certain approved sites and up to 3000 feet only - glider site frequency

129.9 ground/ground only.

- - - - - - -
129.9, and perhaps 129.975 also, is shared with other users.

(i) is the primary use, (ii) is the secondary for use when the primary frequency is very busy, where there are alternatives shown above.

These channels are not supposed to be used for some of the things that "chat" might include, but there are people who are not as disciplined as one would like (a trait not exclusive to gliding).

Chris N.

Back to the topic....
 

I fly out of a place literally a few miles away from Lasham. I started my flying career on SLMG flyiing next to Lasham..and yes it is hard to spot gliders! Our powered gliders have the dayglo-orange 'conspicuity' patches on them and i have to say, it dos help from certain angles, but in some light and viewed from some angles you just cannot see them clearly or at all until they are close.

With putting transponders in gliders...can you imagine what farnborough radar screen would look like during championship week at Lasham??! Yes, it is a good idea and we have transponders in ours...but the conditions in which transponders in gliders were used would have to be thought about...
Powered a/c are normally advised of heavy gliding sites by ATC and the answer at the end of the day is - It is your responsibilty as captain/pax to keep a good look out going at all times.

ACW335

This is true, but remember that some quite heavy metal may be in the airspace, e.g. a Canadair Challenger proceeding quite legally at 250kts.

If you get blown away by wake turbulence, then airlaw may not be such a great consolation.

I had a 'close encounter' (i.e. intended and advised by ATC) with a 727 a few years ago, in controlled airspace under radar control and it did make me consider how good viz is in jets and turboprops, since the crew never saw my a/c even though we saw them VERY clearly.

Still, its your call.....

ACW335
quote"Powered a/c are normally advised of heavy gliding sites by ATC and the answer at the end of the day is - It is your responsibilty as captain/pax to keep a good look out going at all times"

You state the obvious and I would suggest that the majority of times GA aircraft will fly reasonably straight and level HOWEVER, experience suggests that gliders do something very different and movement is very unpredictable. I do hope glider pilots do not rely on powered a/c giving way. Perhaps I am just too cynical but no doubt all you glider types will tell me why I have this perception!

WorkingHard

I thought you put that very well indeed.

Perhaps there should be a rule (I'm being serious now) that as powered a/c don't dart about, they should be given right of way over a/c such as gliders who do take up an orbital chunk of airspace a mile wide within a short period of time.

Think of it, you are on a long trip (2 hrs+) in your Arrow and you are in the middle of it with a frequency change, a VOR to select, a GPS to cross check, a passenger to shut up, a transponder to reset, a map to refold and a knee board to write on. Should you really have the added responsiblilty at 120 kts of looking out for someone doing aerial hoops?

I am being semi-sarcastic but when you look at it like that it does make you think......

(Blindfold on and ready for the firing squad)

Monocock/Working Hard

The rules of the air follow the rules of the sea closely, so steam must give way to sail - but when a supertanker never sees a yacht and the yacht ends up as flotsam and the supertanker doesn't even have a dent or scratch, does anyone even know what happened?

Yes, air law is very clear, but the involved parties may end up arguing their case in front of St Peter ;)

ACW335

The transponder requirement isn't just for radar; it is also for TAS/TCAS.

Fortunately a transponder good enough to be seen on TCAS requires far less power than the standard sort.

The standard counter argument is that en-route mid-airs in GA are extremely rare, and GA TAS/TCAS is very expensive (a £20k+ option on most new IFR planes) but airliners have it and it will only take an incident involving an airliner and a glider... This summer I have seen gliders which were definitely a few hundred feet in the 2500ft London TMA (around MID).

GULP...
 

:oh: Blimey..not being a 'conventional' glider pilot i didn't realise that they were able to venture into the likes of the LTMA (the gliders i fly all have transponders) and with it being quite a low height down south i can now see that it must happen regularly. Im sure something needs to be done to prevent showers of fibre glass in the airways (didnt realise it was that bad!:uhoh: !)

chrisN thanks for the frequencies. I asked as I thought that it might be useful, when in the vicinity of somewhere like Biscester on a sunny Saturday, to listen out to 130.4 or 130.1 to give myself a clue regarding the position of invisible gliders.

Undisciplined use of radio is by no means limited to glider pilots unfortunately

XXX Radar, this is Jonathon Livingstone Sparrow cruising at 1,495 feet on 1006 millibars heading 260 degrees magnetic on an AirPath compass, sitting in the front left hand seat of Piper Tomahawk registration G-!!!!, serial number PA-34/01010204, going to Sleap for a cup of tea with two sugars and milk followed by bacon, sausage and two over easy eggs. :mad: :* :mad:

IO540 wrote: [snip] "This summer I have seen gliders which were definitely a few hundred feet in the 2500ft London TMA (around MID)."

Illegally, I presume.

There are or have been places and occasions where gliders are permitted in certain localised areas of the LTMA, e.g. during certain competitions at Booker with CAA special approval and then of course NOTAM'd, but in general gliders have been banned from the LTMA since, IIRC, 1975.

For the most part, the LTMA will be as free from gliders as it will from illegally intruding GA aircraft of other kinds; just as assigned levels will be free from anything else except level busts or people in the wrong place due to pilot or ATC error. Breaking the law and making errors are, unfortunately, human characteristics which seem incapable of complete eradication.

Chris N.

ChrisN

the LTMA will be as free from gliders as it will from illegally intruding GA aircraft of other kinds

Indeed - the difference is that not only GA planes are normally visible on radar even with the XP off (gliders usually aren't, it seems to me when flying under a RIS) but GA will have to carry and use a XP before long.

The question is whether having visually poorly visible and electronically invisible aircraft around is a good thing. On the face of it, no, but in reality there are few collisions between gliders and non-gliders, so it seems to work.