First Aircraft Purchase
 

Hi all.

I have recently obtained my EASA PPL, and intend on buying an aircraft, perhaps jointly with a friend. We both intend to obtain an IR(r) relatively quickly, perhaps followed by an IR in due course.

I would prefer to have something with at least 6 seats, an excellent avionics package, and a reasonable amount of comfort.

I travel around the UK and parts of Europe regularly on business, so I would like something which is reasonably quick and has a decent range.

As I learnt to fly in a PA28, I have mainly been looking at Piper Saratogas so far, but have also looked at the Piper Malibu. The budget will extend to around $300,000, although there may be a little room for an increase if required.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what would be most suitable, or alternative suggestions or observations?

Thanks in advance.

Some more questions:
* do you want oxygen, from bottles and a breathing piece, or even a pressurised cabin?
* will you consider a turboprop?
* what runway do you have available? length? surface? There is a Saratoga based at my homefield, but the 600m grass runway is barely long enough for it.

Take a good look at a Cessna 210, it fits your question and is a damn nice aircraft if you can find a good one.
Who are you going to put in those 6 seats, Very few aircraft will allow you to carry 6 adults and full fuel so
there will always be a compromise between load and range.

If you're a recent PPL it would be wise to consider your aircraft aspirations in terms of stepping stones. Stepping right into a continental performing six seat aircraft may be expecting a bit much of yourself. Asking for a quote to be insured on such and aircraft could be a helpful indicator of this. Certainly the responsibility you take when you take five passengers is big. Five more people each with their expectations and agenda can put a lot of pressure on you as a pilot to undertake or continue a flight which may be pushing your skills. You and two passengers should be your early piloting objective. Consider a decent four seat aircraft first, and build your experience for a few hundred hours, and a few distant trips first. A Cessna 182, or Piper Dakota could be good choices.

FG Saratoga handles/flies almost identically to any PA28 with wobbly prop and no gear to leave up.

Six seats, 150+kts, job done. You'll get a lot of change from $300K as well...

The "doctor killer" factor might be quite relevant, yes. Perhaps best to do some trips with a rented plane, first? That will allow you to hone your skills AND to make sure that this is really what you (and a partner, perhaps?) really want.

Also, be careful about sharing the plane with someone else. Even if good company for an evening out, that doesn't necessarily mean good company for spending several hours together, in a rather confined space.

Are the 6 seats for family or employees?

Yes, in the hands of an experienced pilot. At 150 knots, things happen fast for a new pilot, and those other five people can be very distracting. As new pilots practice longer flights in less demanding circumstances, the basic skills will develop and the demands of flying the plane will take less of the total available attention of the pilot, allowing that pilot to divert the needed attention to passengers, new geographical areas, and then the abnormal situation which occurs from time to time.

I can remember one of my first flights flying the Cessna 310 with four passengers, husband, wife, daughter and friend. Conditions were ideal for the flight. At 180 knots, things happened faster than I expected and (long before the days of GPS) I arrived much sooner than I expected to my destination, so there I was at 6500 feet, doing 180 knots, entering the control zone - I errantly left myself a lot of getting down to do! - My poor planning. So, my descent was a bit more rapid than I should have undertaken. I was okay with it, and husband toughed it out, but the 500+FPM descent (entirely my fault to need to do) was misery for the three ladies in the back. There were "ows" and tears from ears popping, and the sense of speed. It was no bug deal for an experienced aviator, but I had overlooked the fact that not everyone who boards your aircraft is as experienced as they, or you think. Ultimately, no harm done, but I felt unprofessional. The passengers distracted me terribly on the way down, while I reminded myself to focus on arrival checklists. It was the entry point to a stupid accident. I prevented the stupid accident with nearly adequate airmanship, and the whole event was very memorable for me.

Walk before you run....

Whilst not nullifying your comments, three pax can be as distracting as five - and 150kts is likely to be only 20-30kts faster than the four seat they might otherwise buy. Your 180kts example is a considerably more significant (50%) increase on 120kts...

You should also be careful about buying something you might 'grow out of' very quickly.

Buy the higher performance aircraft, and invest in a 'bring along instructor' (or indeed any experienced pilot) for the first few long trips. I guarantee they'll charge little to nothing if it's a fun trip...

Location Ayr? would that be the small island north of Scotland? And question, exactly how many hours altogether have you flown? Starting with a big expensive aircraft, and little experience or qualification, means that it will NOT save you money. Nor will it get you places in bad weather. Flying by yourself, OK. taking any pax at all, they may be impressed with the fancy machine, but the bottom line is your experience. With important business at your destination, would you turn back if weather was unsuitable? Especially if passengers are aboard!
Not equipped to fly at airline altitudes, better to be alone in the aircraft, with no serious business tempting you to carry on. I flew in rented aircraft in the US, and my own PA18 (with a towhook) in the UK. And an instrument rating. And the experience to realise when it might be a very good idea to change the plan and go by road. Now 85, I started flying at 50, and flew over 3,000 hours, never hurt an aircraft or a passenger.

O yes. Have you passed your aviation medical?

Start with a Piper Cherokee 6/6X. Get your IR(R) on that. Couple of years time when you've got some more time behind you think about a Saratoga, C210 or Bonanza.

You'll progress quicker and your insurer will love you.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. It is appreciated.

I understand the concerns raised regarding developing my aviation skills suitably before jumping into an aircraft like this. As such, I would be happy taking along a safety pilot for the first few long trips to become comfortable with flying the aircraft.

I have a family of 6, and whilst it would be rare for the six seats to be occupied, it would certainly allow that to happen on occasion. I also feel that it would be a more comfortable experience when there were only 3/4 pax on trips with friends or business colleagues.

As a result of this, I am conscious that I do not want to outgrow my first aircraft too quickly. I don't really fancy buying, and then trying to sell and upgrade a year or so later. So an aircraft that gives me room to develop my skills and allows me to do more when I have become a more proficient aviator would be ideal. At that time I suppose oxygen becomes more of an issue, therefore I would be happy to consider these options now.

I'm flying out of Prestwick, so plenty of runway to work with. If there were an option to rent, or share, a nice suitable aircraft in the meantime, I would be happy to do so. But I haven't so far seen anything in the area that ticks the boxes, or appears to be available.

I have learned to expect the unexpected, in UK aviation, but this question seems to suggest it is possible in UK to gain an EASA PPL without having passed the aviation medical - my imagination feels challenged.

From the opening message:

Me too, (though also two grandchildren and their dads now too). I have often had the use of six seat planes, though I have never taken all of my family flying at once, that has been my choice. More recently, I've been very happy to take just one family member with me.

You have a family of 6? Then it is time to evaluate.

A 6 seater means filling the 6 seats at reduced fuel load. => 6 people + luggage means you have to reduce fuel load dramatically, and range reduces to a hop to the next town..

Plus: 6 people in a 6 seater + minimal luggage => means very precise Center of Gravity calculations at take off, but also when the fuel is burned off for landing.

For all practical, and safety reasons, if you want to fly 6 people, with luggage over any distance? You need the load capacity, and center of gravity margins of a 10 seater.

Andrew Devlin has built a very nice hangar at Cumbernauld and has a very very nice Cirrus.

He started flying about seven years ago and now takes his aircraft all over Europe in all sorts of weather.

Might be worth having a word with him about your ideas and how to achieve them. (He also might have hangar space too!)

I think he has gone through many of the processes you will have to!

(most instructors, indeed most flying schools, don't own aircraft - for example!)

You have a family of six, you should buy (at least) a six-seater.

@Vilters' post about fuel/load etc. is very valuable, but you have some options.

I'm guessing by your age that some of the gang are small/very small, it may also be that you're not planning on flying all of them long distances.

Our FG Saratoga can take 6 adults (no fatties and no luggage) 400nm. It's old, as they get newer they carry less. Or, I can take four adults and luggage almost 1000nm...

Cheers, Sam.

... Is the phrase I like. We had a super family holiday many years back, a combination of fly and drive. I flew the mighty Cessna 150, taking one family member with me, as we progressed along the route, we'd meet at airports and change passengers. Everyone got a portion f the flight. When I happened upon a pod of whales near the ocean, We stopped for a family picnic at the airport, and I took each person out to see the whales.

Consider taking a smaller plane for your family trip, and having some family members travel by another means, meeting you along the way, or at your destination.

Maybe it's just me.

If you have a family of four, get at least a four seat plane. Six, at least six. Eight, well, you get the idea...

But maybe it's just me.

Couple of points. You intend to get your IR(R) fairly quickly. Thats a good leap for a new PPL. It may prove a longer task than you expect.

You intend to fly on business. Check your company Key Man insurance. It may not allow you to fly at all, almost certainly not to fly your key staff without quite a lot of experience.

I had a PA32 260 from 1967. Brilliant aeroplane. Did all I asked of it, but on that particular one the CofG needed close watching.

SND

Hi Frazmac. Firstly , well done on obtaining your PPL . It is the first step . It is your 'licence to learn' ! The only advice I will offer you is : Just make sure that your budget level [which appears to be pretty good] doesn't exceed your skill level !
I hope this doesn't sound cynical , but it isn't unusual that guys obtain flying qualifications and then immediately want to progress to higher levels and then suddenly find themselves getting into trouble a damn sight quicker than they did in the a/c that they learnt in .
But if you do go on to buying /flying some super 'whizz/bang' , [and I hope you do] then please , please , please get yourself acquainted with it before you start taking your family/friends all over Europe .

I don't know about the insurance market in the UK, but you would be hard pressed to get insurance on a high performance aircraft here with less then 200 to 300 hours. Over here, you need to get insurance approved before you buy if a low time pilot. The previous post about renting, if possible in the UK, would be a good idea.

Family of 6. That way you can all go together...and if that sounds sinister thats exactly what happens. Read about it frequently in the Air Accident reports. I have four offspring, and 18 grandkids, and I only ever took one ADULT child up at a time. Even then they got bored fairly quickly. What you really don't need is small bored and airsick children and a wife who is wondering how you could spend all that money on YOUR toy!

Now as for taking up your business associates, if they have any brains at all they will fly commercial. Otherwise weather can ruin your plans and your reputation..... How many hours of experience and ratings before you truly qualify to fly safely? Get real!

Thanks again for everyone's comments. I'll definitely be considering my options closely before making a decision.

I understand the concerns about my lack of the required experience to handle an aircraft like this. It does occur to me that taking my IR(r) course in an aircraft like this sitting alongside my instructor would be a decent way to start obtaining the experience necessary to fly such a plane.

Otherwise, how would I ever get the necessary experience?

If there were a decent aircraft available to rent in the meantime, I would certainly opt for that. But I haven't seen such an option so far. If anyone knows of something suitable, please let me know.

Incidentally, I don't intend to be trying to take the whole family on trips around Europe or anything. I expect most of the longer range flights will mainly be myself and sometimes one or two other passengers. But I would prefer to have the space available to take friends/family/colleagues for a short flight somewhere if the situation arises.

A question out of curiosity more than anything else.
Not so much of what aircraft to purchase, but how to purchase.
I’m familiar with the protocol in the USA where it’s almost unheard of to part with any money before a good Pre Buy inspection is done by a licensed A&P mechanic, and preferably not by the mechanic who the seller used for his annuals.Does the same procedure apply in the UK when looking to purchase an aircraft ?

Too be honest, I'm not sure it's so much the actual handling of a high performance aircraft as the work load required to fly long distances with very changable weather and having to make decisions that mean you and your family could end up a very long way from home with no easy means of getting there. Personally with your means id get ir(r) then do some consolidation and then do my twin rating and buy one of those. Personally I would never, ever, fly my family or friends over water I couldn't glide clear of unless I had an engine on each wing.

Frazmac, you really should listen to what Andrew Devlin can tell you about this.

He's a nice guy, with some nice aircraft, oodles of money and time to indulge himself in it.

For what you plan to do, he's the guy who knows about it.

I'd like to get in touch with Andrew. Do you have any contact details for him?

@funfly

Given your post, you do realise this forum is for private flying?

Sorry mate, Although I don't fly nowadays I have quite a few hundred hours under my belt but always GA.
Like most others, I took my family members up for a flight as soon as I passed my PPL but looking back this was a silly thing to do. During my time there were many "phew" moments. I remember taking off once from La Rochelle in a PA32 (might have been a PA28) with a full tank four on board and all our holiday luggage, hot day etc. - density altitude? but didn't do it again!
Let the pro's fly your family until you are well experienced and certainly with an instrument rating.
But he does seem like a sensible fellow so I am sure he will read into the comments here.

I must add that although I have owned quite a few aircraft and flown many types, I actually did have most flying fun in my xAir Falcon microlight.

I agree with most of the stuff posted already, you need an intermediate aeroplane before moving to a PA46. The workload increases significantly in a high performance complex type. A good comprimise would be a Cessna 206. It's a much better load lifter than most six place aeroplanes. It is fixed gear so maintenance will be a bit cheaper. The problem with most six place aeroplanes is that they are really only four place aeroplanes by the time you have some baggage and plenty of fuel. Be prepared to spend a bit of time with an instructor getting checked out on type and you may find your insurance company specifies a minimum amount of dual time on type before you can fly it by yourself.
Always have an experienced engineer who knows the type to do a pre-purchase survey before you commit to buy. You don't want an aeroplane that has spent most of it's life as a parachute drop machine.
Best of luck with your search and try and fly as many of the types on your list with their owners. Most owners will take you flying in their pride and joy for a contribution to the cost of the fuel and a bacon sandwich.

Not sure anyone has mentioned PA46...? PA32 (FG), C206 etc. are good, 'easy' six-seat planes.

The original post mentionned they were looking at Piper Malibu which last time I checked was a PA46!

Sorry, seen!

I think the OP will struggle to find a PA46 of any sort of 'quality' for $300K. Plus that's a much bigger jump than the other options, and also actually can't carry six people for more than, well, really not very far at all!

Yes it's the same old story the last two seats are there just for show. I have a twin comanche which is really only a four place aeroplane or a three seater if you fill the tanks. But you can go a very long way with 120 US gal.