Syndicate Size CAA Limit
 

I am told that under CAA rules a syndicate may not be larger than 20 members. Under the new EASA rules would this still be the case. We have an aircraft with 20 members, 12 of whom never fly (still pay luckily). Would it be allowed for a 21st person to fly the aircraft under CAA rules, if the Insurer accept the 21st person?

Having browsed the various regulations:

• EASA rues do not seem to address group ownership.
• ICAO Annex 7 only refers to the owner.
• The ANO does not specify a limit.

Is seems to be a CAA decision, but I failed to find a legal basis for it.

P.s: If UK aircraft have the prefix G-, which country(s) use the prefix UK-?

This sort of thing kills flying schools.
We have the burden of all the rent and rates, etc. and people can just come along and under cut us.
Then when the pilots lose their medicals and need re-validations where do they come running to.
Syndicates should be limited to 2 or 3.

That's Protectionism.

Legislate against private ownership because you are concerned about individual decisions affecting flying school rentals?

What a bizarre attitude.

Flying School aircraft availability for renting for longer trips, in good weather, is a problem. I'd have flown much more this winter if our Group plane had been serviceable. I don't see Syndicates taking trade from Flying Schools. We are 6, but I was once in a 16 Member Group.
I'd have given up flying long ago if I hadn't bought a share.
The Flying School still gets some trade from me.

The 5% limit *was* in the ANO, it was removed a couple of years ago. So, now, 21+ members is fine. EASA, so far as I know, has no opinion on the subject. This is entirely a UK concern.

As a serial and parallel share owner, I have embraced this for years and have encouraged many others to also. I think that flying schools griping about it are on a hiding to nothing - but there is nothing to stop them providing services to syndicates such as instruction, hangarage, aircraft management support, maintenance - and some do do that.

G

Yes, I found it. It used to be article 269 "Public transport and aerial work – exceptions – jointly owned aircraft", but that article and the topic were removed from the ANO 2016 - the current version.

BigEndBob,

Just out of curiosity, what makes you sway this way?

Have you tried to rent an aeroplane for 5 or 6 days to tour around Europe from a flying school? I can tell you that I have tried, and despite agreeing to flying 2+ tacho hour average per day, I have been told that it was not possible due to instructing requirements by many schools / clubs.

In a school with many aeroplanes which will remain nameless, I was given a talking to about booking one of their planes for 1 full day of flying (a Friday may I add). I extended my booking the evening before to cover the whole day as I saw nobody else had booked the plane. I had anticipated flying over 5 hours and going to 5 or 6 different airfields. I was told that it was unfair to other members to book a plane for the whole day, and that I shouldn't have done so. It was very patronising... They then gave me a hard time about the destinations I had anticipated going to, and required signatures from an instructor to state that it was acceptable for me to land at these places (Popham, Sandown, Laddingford... in a piper supercub (with flaps) and I had around 350hours on my PPL at the time). I only did 4.5hours in the end because I had wasted so much time before flying to be "approved" to fly to different airfields. With that mindset, I decided that renting from that particular school was simply never going to be my first choice. I suddenly became aware that having a share was the best thing I could have ever done.

Having a big group paying the bills is fantastic, making flying cheaper and more fun for everyone and I am glad that these requirements are no longer in effect! :-)

It has been a long time since Accounting A level, but wasn't the 20 limit to do with the maximum number of ‘partners’ in a ‘Partnership’.
I think it depended on how you structured your Group.
https://www.informdirect.co.uk/busin...uk-what-is-it/

Regards

Where a group of like-minded people buy and operate an aircraft it is usually in the form of a trust so unless it is for ownership of land (where I think the maximum number of beneficiaries is four) I don't think there is a limit to the number of beneficiaries.

I'm not aware of any limit per se to the size of a group, however the real issue I'd be looking at is would you really want to be a member of a group of that size.


A large group of 10-20+ shares splits the bills more but can create problems with availability as there are so many people who want access to the a/c. This can create tension and also personalities/politics can come into play, causing infighting. Groups of that size aren't really syndicates, they're really mini flying clubs.

With a group at or approaching 20 you'd be looking at more than one aircraft.

Saying a lot more now I'm on my laptop, not my phone.


As I said earlier (thanks for the detail) the 2016 ANO amendment removed the limit of 20 members to a syndicate, so you can now have as many as you want.

I've rented, sole-owned, and been a member of various syndicates for a quarter century - I still do both, although personally have a massive preference for being a member of a syndicate.

20 strong syndicates still fly remarkably few hours in my experience - I'm in one at the moment and probably have the aeroplane when I want it 3 times out of 4. Last weekend five of us pitched up to share the donkey work of the annual (saving us several thousand quid), we have a couple of instructors in the syndicate who help out internally, and run an aeroplane for, roughly speaking, 60% of the per hour cost of renting a similar aeroplane.

The advantages of syndicate ownership are..

- Getting to know an aeroplane far better
- Having the ability to fly a few hours in a day or week - and no penalty for cancellations, or frankly if you just want to book it for the day, take a deck chair, and sit and admire it.
- Sharing costs
- Often getting to fly a type you simply couldn't rent.
- Having a group you can do things with, who have a common interest.

The disadvantages are...

- That you pay, to some extent, for your cheap flying, by putting some time in, for tasks like cleaning, accounts, unskilled maintenance, and so-on.
- If the aeroplane's sick or broken, there's nothing to fly (well, you can go and rent from somewhere else) but you are still paying.
- Every once in a while you find that a syndicate member "turns bad" and becomes an almighty nuisance.
- If you want out, it's generally your job to sell your share, and you still have the monthlies to pay until then.
- Less (type) variety in your flying.


In my experience the break even on syndicate ownership typically sits somewhere around 24 hours per year - less than that, and you are probably better off financially renting (but still don't get the other advantages). More than that, and it pays off financially as well. But it's easy enough to do the sums, for example...

For example, just looking at AFORS there's an Arrow 1/7th share there going for £5k then £175/month and £115/hr. Going rate to rent an Arrow is around £230/hr at the moment I think - so think in terms of total bill (ignore the £5k for just a moment)...

10 hrs.pa: rental cost £2,300; syndicate cost £3,250
20 hrs.pa: rental cost £4,600; syndicate cost £4,400
30 hrs.pa: rental cost £6,900; syndicate cost £5,500
36 hrs.pa: rental cost £8,280; syndicate cost £6,240

(I like using 36 hours for these sort of calculations, as about 3 hours per month is where I tend to mentally peg my syndicate useage).

So at 3 hours per month, you need to stump up £5k initially, then your flying is such that you get the flying at £230/hr effectively for the first three and a half years, followed by £173/hr (but still own the £5k share).


Here's another set of calcs, more at the bargain end - AFORS shows a 1/12th C150 share going for £1600, then £50/month and £60/hr. Running the same numbers, and I think that rental on a 150/152 is usually around £135/hr...

10 hrs.pa: rental £1,350; syndicate cost £1,200
20 hrs.pa: rental £2,700; syndicate cost £1,800
30 hrs.pa: rental £4,050; syndicate cost £2,400
36 hrs.pa: rental £4,860; syndicate cost £2,760

So to buy 1/12th of a C150, and fly 30 hours per year you'll pay off your share in the first year at £135/hr for your flying and subsequently pay about £80/hr for your flying; £77/hr if you fly 36 hours.


That's the financial position - the rest, both pros and cons I see as fairly clearcut - either this suits you or it doesn't. I wouldn't be worried about big syndicates - I would just always caution to get to know as many members as you can and ensure it's a *good* syndicate.

G

How do these usually charge? Off blocks? Airborne? tacho? If it’s Airborne, then presumably at £60per hour you could put an hour in your logbook for £50?

I would say that syndicates that I've seen generally split about 60% chocks, 40% tacho. I can't recall any I've known charging airborne - although I'm sure some exist.

I'm in a syndicate at the moment that charges £100/hr tacho for an AA5a based at a medium sized airport and I fly ~65% power most of the time, my last few flights worked out about £85/hr logged. Tacho works particularly well because it tends to strongly encourage members to treat their aeroplane gently.

G

We charge ourselves on tach. That way no-one can cheat. I usually fly at high rpm, and a tach hour is about an hour in the air. Fly more slowly, and you pay less.
The engine manufacturer recomends the higher rpm.

Many years ago I was in a syndicate where nobody knew how many members there were, but some of us reckoned at least 30. It had one C152 but there was never a problem with availability. It is probably still going strong. Just goes to show how many members in a syndicate actually fly.

I think we've got the best of all worlds ... we pay on the Hobbs - but it only ticks when the engine is running AND the air speed is > 30 kts.
On the ground, engine running = FREE
In the air, engine stopped = FREE

It is a TMG, so "In the air, engine stopped" is not a problem (one of our syndicate members has been known to disappear for hours at a time - for a cost of around £10).

OC619

Indeed OC619 :ok: I don't understand why TMGs aren't more popular. Great way of cheap powered flying, and the ability to stop the donkey and do real flying courtesy of mother nature.


Sad that there are so few opportunities to fly TMGs in the UK.

'cos there REALLY awkward to get in and out of the average hangar. We had one for years until recently and it only came out on high days and holidays when there were enough people around to handle it. Also, they don't seem so good in the rough weather that our PA28 can handle. Oh, yes, and they only really come in to their own on decent soaring days.

I've seen the TMG hangars at Enstone and they seem a bit better, being purpose-built, not like our hangar.

Having said that, I was privileged to have a few goes in ours before it went, got 800' climb out of it with the engine off, up to the cloudbase, and I'm not a glider pilot, so I can see they're good fun.

TOO