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PPL Law UK Vs Other EASA State questions
Hi there,
I am currently studying for my PPL law exams and I have used a couple of different question banks. I recently had a question come up regarding VFR flight visibility limitations below 3000ft, and less than 140kts, I answered that minimum visibility was 1500m, which it said was wrong and it was in fact 5km. I came across an almost identical question in another bank, and it said that 1500m was the minimum. So one is ICAO rules and the other is CAA exemption? If this is true then in what light should I assume the questions are asked? Should I assume from a UK perspective? Or an international? The wording in my skyway code is "where permitted by a member state the minimum may be reduced to 1500m". I think there may be a couple of more examples, but I don't have them to hand. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks |
Learn the answer to the questions relating to the catalogue of the authorities which will test you. Focus on national flying, as exams do ask only that and postpone to understand the ICAO-SERA-CAA-NAA-xAA madness for later doing cross border flying. Too much to start with.
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In real life, the answer is "WGAS? - 1500m visibility means I can't see one end of the runway from the other, there's no way I'm going flying in that, legal or not". Sadly, although this approach is absolutely correct, and works fine in conversation with examiners during flying tests, it doesn't help with the written exam.
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Ok so I should assume the questions are specific to the UK, and not ICAO I general? I that case the answer would have been 1500m.
Originally Posted by ChickenHouse
(Post 10032566)
Learn the answer to the questions relating to the catalogue of the authorities which will test you. Focus on national flying, as exams do ask only that and postpone to understand the ICAO-SERA-CAA-NAA-xAA madness for later doing cross border flying. Too much to start with.
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Air Law and Visibility
The first thing to say is that it is important to ensure that you are studying using an up to date source. It appears that you may not be doing so.
The ICAO minima that determines VMC is 1500 metres, VFR minima is also 1500 metres. Countries (states) can chose to restrict their pilot licence privileges further. The UK used to restrict the PPL to a minima of 3K and the NPPL to 5K and always to be in sight of the surface. Since EASA this is no longer the case. Licence privileges are now aligned with the ICAO minima (EASA is compliant with ICAO in this regard). So flight below 3000ft and 140kts; VMC minima 1500 metres VFR minima 1500 metres CPL/PPL/NPPL minima 1500 metres When the meteorological conditions are below 1500 metres then the condition is IMC and only flight in accordance with IFR is permitted. VMC, VFR and PPL privileges within controlled airspace will vary according to the class of airspace. |
The above assumes PPL(A). PPL(H) is different.
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Minimas
Jim59
How are the privileges, with regard to visibility, different for helicopters? |
Hi
Thanks for the reply, I got the information from the skyway code cap 1535, 2017 edition. It says: “Flight visibility in F/G airspace: where permitted by a member state this may be reduced to 1500m if flying by day, insight of the surface and at 140kts IAS of less. In the UK this is permitted in class g airspace”. So I understand this, I just want to make sure the questions asked in the UK version of the ppl law exam will reflect the UK rules?
Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog
(Post 10033047)
The first thing to say is that it is important to ensure that you are studying using an up to date source. It appears that you may not be doing so.
The ICAO minima that determines VMC is 1500 metres, VFR minima is also 1500 metres. Countries (states) can chose to restrict their pilot licence privileges further. The UK used to restrict the PPL to a minima of 3K and the NPPL to 5K and always to be in sight of the surface. Since EASA this is no longer the case. Licence privileges are now aligned with the ICAO minima (EASA is compliant with ICAO in this regard). So flight below 3000ft and 140kts; VMC minima 1500 metres VFR minima 1500 metres CPL/PPL/NPPL minima 1500 metres When the meteorological conditions are below 1500 metres then the condition is IMC and only flight in accordance with IFR is permitted. VMC, VFR and PPL privileges within controlled airspace will vary according to the class of airspace. |
Can anyone advise as to the most accurate way of measuring 1500 meters ?
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Determine something that's 1500m away, and see if you can see it.
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Thank you. It is the 'determine' bit that tends to let me down.
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We used to have a definition of horizontal surface visibility of:
'a darker object visible against a lighter background'. Of course the visibility we're talking about here is in-flight vis, which tends to be less than surface vis. Commercial aviation moved on decades ago to 'Runway Visual Range' which was determined by counting runway lights from a fixed position then ATC would convert this into RVR. At civilised 'dromes like London we had caravans but at Eastleigh they used to use a step-ladder. It's all been replaced by transmissometers now (used to be yellow, the latest kit all seems to be red, dunno why.) Anyway, determining 1,500m airborne is really tricky, as soon as you've seen something at the edge of visibility, it's under you and there's something else appeared out of the gloom. Personally, there's NO WAY I'd go flying VFR in vis. that poor, but the OP was asking about exams, not reality... TOO |
Minimas
Jim59 How are the privileges, with regard to visibility, different for helicopters? SERA allows helicopters to fly down to 800 metres vis if flown at an appropriate speed for the prevailing conditions. |
Minimas
PelicanSquawk
The requirement to remain in sight of the surface is an old UK licence restriction and was removed when we became EASA compliant. Licence privileges are now fully aligned with ICAO/EASA VFRs. Being in sight of the surface in certain circumstances has been restored with SERA. To ensure that you have the most up to date facts always refer to the latest AIP; ENR 1.2 Visual Flight Rules A note for when you sit the exam is, as always, read the questions carefully. The question on this subject may be with regard to flight above 3000ft altitude when the visibility minima is 5K and also below if the airspeed is greater than 140kts. We have been discussing flight below that altitude and speed. The UK PPL exams will only question you with regard to the UK law. Jim59 I cannot find anything that permits a helicopter to fly in accordance with VFR in IMC. Do you have a reference? |
Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen
(Post 10033345)
Can anyone advise as to the most accurate way of measuring 1500 meters ?
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Jim59 I cannot find anything that permits a helicopter to fly in accordance with VFR in IMC. Do you have a reference? See page 28 of 92 * When the height of the transition altitude is lower than 3 050 m (10 000 ft) AMSL, FL 100 shall be used in lieu of 10 000 ft. ** When so prescribed by the competent authority: a) flight visibilities reduced to not less than 1 500 m may be permitted for flights operating: 1) at speeds of 140 kts IAS or less to give adequate opportunity to observe other traffic or any obstacles in time to avoid collision; or 2) in circumstances in which the probability of encounters with other traffic would normally be low, e.g. in areas of low volume traffic and for aerial work at low levels. b) helicopters may be permitted to operate in less than 1 500 m but not less than 800 m flight visibility, if manoeuvred at a speed that will give adequate opportunity to observe other traffic or any obstacles in time to avoid collision.. *** The VMC minima in Class A airspace are included for guidance to pilots and do not imply acceptance of VFR flights in Class A airspace. |
Minimas
Thanks Jim59
Its all our night mares i'm afraid. Your reference dated 26 September 2012 appears to have been revoked. See UK AIP ENR 1-2-1 31 Mar 2016, ENR 1.2 Visual Flight Rules. The exemption is removed from the text, 1500 metres is the VFR absolute minimum. In the good old days we used to receive AICs on changes, apparently there's no longer the financial means. So, we should all go to bed at night reading the ANO and the AIP from cover to cover before closing our eyes, alternatively we could simply loose the will to live. |
It's a pity that the authorities who worry about safety don't realise that if they make rules too lengthy, complicated or difficult to understand easily they will be ignored.
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The reference quoted by Jim59 (which is to SERA.5001) has not been revoked. Helicopters may still be permitted to operate under VFR in flight visibility of less than 5km down to a minimum of 800m. The critical phrase in the Regulation, however, is 'When so prescribed by the competent authority'. The UK has prescribed that VFR flights may be conducted in a visibility of not less than 1500m but has never prescribed the further decrease to 800m for helicopters. The current legal instrument for this prescription is ORS4 No.1067.
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minimas
Romeo Tango makes a valid point - so what is the point of it all!
Jim59 quotes a document still available dated September 2012 and honestly believes it still to be true. I quoted what I consider to be the overriding document, the current AIP March 2016, because of the later date. Billie Bob though quotes an ORS4 No 1067 dated December 2014, which is listed by the CAA as "current". I still contend the later date of the AIP overrides but, am I right? Nothing in ORS4 No 1067 contradicts the AIP of March 2016 but just the same it is current - why is it necessary, it adds nothing to the AIP? |
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